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Old June 3rd, 2009, 08:36 AM   #361
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Well I briefly looked at the site and noticed it was from a SECULAR HUMANIST'S VIEWPOINT. No need to read any further, of course he would see flaw in the existance of Christ. Historians throughout history have tried to disprove the existance of Christ and have failed, when looking at all the facts. I will try to find you some when I have more time.
So you only read criticisms of Christianity by hardcore Christians...yes, your faith is safe. :)
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 08:40 AM   #362
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So you only read criticisms of Christianity by hardcore Christians...yes, your faith is safe. :)
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 09:02 AM   #363
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So you only read criticisms of Christianity by hardcore Christians...yes, your faith is safe. :)
i did go over it, alittle, i feel that my faith is safe and I am on the right path so to speak, I believe what I believe same as you belive what you believe. People have been trying to disprove Christ since His time and they cannot do it.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 10:53 AM   #364
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i did go over it, alittle, i feel that my faith is safe and I am on the right path so to speak, I believe what I believe same as you belive what you believe. People have been trying to disprove Christ since His time and they cannot do it.
the problem with this line of thinking is that the burden of proof in theological arguments does not lie with atheists to disprove god/jesus, but with the theists who are making these extraordinary claims. Any sane and logical person should require more than some old books to believe such insane sounding claims.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 11:14 AM   #365
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the problem with this line of thinking is that the burden of proof in theological arguments does not lie with atheists to disprove god/jesus, but with the theists who are making these extraordinary claims. Any sane and logical person should require more than some old books to believe such insane sounding claims.

Your so right, heck with those old book's. I think Darwin wrote one or two, and so did Newton and Einstien.... But your right.

I think it's so cool that everything came from nothing....LMAO
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 11:18 AM   #366
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So you only read criticisms of Christianity by hardcore Christians...yes, your faith is safe. :)

I actually thought you posted the comment about not reading or taking something serious that is written by somebody with an agenda....

Kinda funny when somebody else does it.....

Congradulations on the wedding....
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 11:40 AM   #367
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the problem with this line of thinking is that the burden of proof in theological arguments does not lie with atheists to disprove god/jesus, but with the theists who are making these extraordinary claims. Any sane and logical person should require more than some old books to believe such insane sounding claims.
Most Christians are sane and locigal people. There are the wack jobs that give us a bad name. I'm not a big fan, but it happens. We use logic and Sanity to decide exactly the same way you do. The only difference is that we believe in something bigger.

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"Atheism is too simple." "If God does not exist, we should never have arrived at the question in the first place." -C.S. Lewis-

Why do you care so much that we believe in what we believe? If there wasn't a doubt in your mind about God being real I don't think you would care so much. I understand you not wanting people to shove Christianity down your throat, but I don't understand being Derogitory towards that Religion if you could just present the facts. It shows there is an issue with people you really shouldn't be worring about....That is if those people don't stir up doubt in your mind.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 11:43 AM   #368
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Your so right, heck with those old book's. I think Darwin wrote one or two, and so did Newton and Einstien.... But your right.

I think it's so cool that everything came from nothing....LMAO
the difference is that books by Darwin, Newton, and Einstein are backed up by evidence and the claims within them can be tested and observed by a third party.

and I do NOT believe that everything came from nothing. I do not necessarily think that the universe requires a beginning. However, if a theory comes out that is backed up by sufficient evidence I will happily change my position. I have no emotional connection to any scientific theory, so I have no problem changing my thinking when different evidence emerges.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 11:49 AM   #369
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Why do you care so much that we believe in what we believe? If there wasn't a doubt in your mind about God being real I don't think you would care so much. I understand you not wanting people to shove Christianity down your throat, but I don't understand being Derogitory towards that Religion if you could just present the facts. It shows there is an issue with people you really shouldn't be worring about....That is if those people don't stir up doubt in your mind.
The thing that bothers me the most is that religion is forced on children before they are old enough to decide for themselves. In my opinion it is nothing short of child abuse.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 11:51 AM   #370
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Your so right, heck with those old book's. I think Darwin wrote one or two, and so did Newton and Einstien.... But your right.

I think it's so cool that everything came from nothing....LMAO
Yes, but people can take the knowledge from those books and use physical evidence to support the theories. This is how something becomes a fact. You can not do that with the bible. The only evidnce of Jesus lies in scrolls.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 11:59 AM   #371
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i did go over it, alittle, i feel that my faith is safe and I am on the right path so to speak, I believe what I believe same as you belive what you believe. People have been trying to disprove Christ since His time and they cannot do it.
People have been trying to prove Christ since his time and they cannot do it. Everything that evolutionists believe in is backed by tangible evidence. You can go dig up dinosaur bones and perform various radio dating methods to prove their age (And I dare anyone on here to disprove radio dating). Trying to disprove Christ is like if I told you that dragons were real. How would you disprove it? There are tons of documents about dragons, but I bet you won't find any fossils or skeletons. Proving that something does not exist is almost impossible. The only thing you can do is disprove surrounding evidence.

On a side note......if Jesus was the most important person to walk this planet, how come nobody wrote a word about him until 30 years after he was crucified? There have been thousands of works found in the time when Jesus was said to roam the planet because it was a time full of poets, storytellers, and the like. Yet NONE of them mentioned one word of the Son of God during this time. The only accounts of Jesus were hearsay. There are also no artifacts from the most important person to ever live. No carpentry, writings,.....nothing. Wierd

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Old June 3rd, 2009, 03:34 PM   #372
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the difference is that books by Darwin, Newton, and Einstein are backed up by evidence and the claims within them can be tested and observed by a third party.

and I do NOT believe that everything came from nothing. I do not necessarily think that the universe requires a beginning. However, if a theory comes out that is backed up by sufficient evidence I will happily change my position. I have no emotional connection to any scientific theory, so I have no problem changing my thinking when different evidence emerges.

How do we know that Darwin, Newton, Einstien, Napoleon, Hannibal, Genghis Kahn, or even George Washington ever existed.....

Maybe those are all stories, or drafts of plays....

What test can a third party perform to prove they existed.....
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 03:43 PM   #373
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Yes, but people can take the knowledge from those books and use physical evidence to support the theories. This is how something becomes a fact. You can not do that with the bible. The only evidnce of Jesus lies in scrolls.

The only evidence of Darwin is in an old book, how about Ceasar, or the Pharos.

Maybe the Christian crusades never happened, all we have is old books that say they did...

The Civil War, ahhhh bullshit, I don't believe it, it's a story that never happened, same with Columbus, Lief Erickson, or Custer...
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 04:59 PM   #374
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The thing that bothers me the most is that religion is forced on children before they are old enough to decide for themselves. In my opinion it is nothing short of child abuse.

Yeah, I see evoultion taught to children in school as no different. Here's an idea, let's teach our kids the Provable sciences and then let them decide which unprovable stuff they want to believe. In lue of that idea though, I'm sure as Hell going to teach my kids about the bible and all the Scienctific and Theological ideas that come from it. It's my job as a parent. No matter how hard I try though, It's Ultimatly thier Choice. If one of my kids decided to be Agnostic, I'll be just as accepting to him as children that follow the truth of Christ. The only difference will lie in my prayers to God about him.
Also, you say it's forced apon children and that turns them into automatic Christians, yet on this board alone there are countless people I've debated with that say they went to church as kids and decided they didn't want to follow that life style after they moved out (Or before in some cases) and are Atheist or Agnostic now. This is proof of my Statement above. It's thier choice.


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People have been trying to prove Christ since his time and they cannot do it. Everything that evolutionists believe in is backed by tangible evidence. You can go dig up dinosaur bones and perform various radio dating methods to prove their age (And I dare anyone on here to disprove radio dating). Trying to disprove Christ is like if I told you that dragons were real. How would you disprove it? There are tons of documents about dragons, but I bet you won't find any fossils or skeletons. Proving that something does not exist is almost impossible. The only thing you can do is disprove surrounding evidence.

On a side note......if Jesus was the most important person to walk this planet, how come nobody wrote a word about him until 30 years after he was crucified? There have been thousands of works found in the time when Jesus was said to roam the planet because it was a time full of poets, storytellers, and the like. Yet NONE of them mentioned one word of the Son of God during this time. The only accounts of Jesus were hearsay. There are also no artifacts from the most important person to ever live. No carpentry, writings,.....nothing. Wierd
The Accounts of Jesus were Gospels written by Apolstles that were there when he died (and rose agian), When he fead the Five thousand, when he healed the countless people he did and then when he finally rose to heaven and gave them the holy spirit. This is Common Knowldege.

Jesus was a Peasant, actually one step lower in all meanings of the word back then. The Fact that people remembered him at all spoke words about what he Accomplished. In those times his class usually didn't read, they just memorized what they heard. Now, that would make thier memorization skills umpteen times better then ours. As boys they were required to memorize thier sacred texts, Jesus was no exception. That's also a very good reason to why there was no writings from Jesus, Because he couldn't (or didn't) write. I don't think you grasp how close 30 years is in the scale of writing down texts and Accounts. That's not Generations, that's eye witnesses writing things down. No time for the "telephone effect", The people writing most (if not all) of the NT were eyewitnesses to Jesus's life. That's rare in All of History to have.

Like I said before, the fact that Jesus was even written about in any ancient text is a giant clue that he was Signifigant. The amount of Texts written about him equal (if not over shadow) the texts about the Rulers of that time. They may be Biblical in nature, but they still are texts.

On another side note, I'm reading a book called "Jesus, A Revoultionary Biography" It's written by a very well known biblical Critic that has been studing the "historical Jesus" for over 25 years. If you really want to claim no proof for Jesus, This book will rock your world. I'm unsure on if the writer is Christian or not but I see that as a good thing because it's very unbias either way. There are alot of things that a literialist like my self has had to deal with and it's been challanging. It's a hard read, but it's been good from what've been able stumble through.

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Old June 3rd, 2009, 10:35 PM   #375
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People have been trying to prove Christ since his time and they cannot do it. Everything that evolutionists believe in is backed by tangible evidence. You can go dig up dinosaur bones and perform various radio dating methods to prove their age (And I dare anyone on here to disprove radio dating). Trying to disprove Christ is like if I told you that dragons were real. How would you disprove it? There are tons of documents about dragons, but I bet you won't find any fossils or skeletons. Proving that something does not exist is almost impossible. The only thing you can do is disprove surrounding evidence.

On a side note......if Jesus was the most important person to walk this planet, how come nobody wrote a word about him until 30 years after he was crucified? There have been thousands of works found in the time when Jesus was said to roam the planet because it was a time full of poets, storytellers, and the like. Yet NONE of them mentioned one word of the Son of God during this time. The only accounts of Jesus were hearsay. There are also no artifacts from the most important person to ever live. No carpentry, writings,.....nothing. Wierd
Well about your radio dating, I have a site that does exactly that
www.creationworldview.org/articles_view?id=6 it puts a new light on everything you where taught in college about Darwin.
Dragons where real also, the term dinosaur was not coined until the mid 1800's. before that they were called you got it dragons. And I believe L4CX and Mr. Towes sumed up the rest quite fine.
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Old June 3rd, 2009, 11:51 PM   #376
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Old June 4th, 2009, 08:20 AM   #377
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I want a pony.
What kind of pony?
Hey are you trying to change the direction of this thread?
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Old June 4th, 2009, 09:05 AM   #378
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Well about your radio dating, I have a site that does exactly that
www.creationworldview.org/articles_view?id=6 it puts a new light on everything you where taught in college about Darwin.
Dragons where real also, the term dinosaur was not coined until the mid 1800's. before that they were called you got it dragons. And I believe L4CX and Mr. Towes sumed up the rest quite fine.
Link doesn't work, but this one does...http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...7/radiodte.htm it shows that radio dating has never been proven to not work.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 09:05 AM   #379
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Yeah, I see evoultion taught to children in school as no different. Here's an idea, let's teach our kids the Provable sciences and then let them decide which unprovable stuff they want to believe. In lue of that idea though, I'm sure as Hell going to teach my kids about the bible and all the Scienctific and Theological ideas that come from it. It's my job as a parent. No matter how hard I try though, It's Ultimatly thier Choice. If one of my kids decided to be Agnostic, I'll be just as accepting to him as children that follow the truth of Christ. The only difference will lie in my prayers to God about him.
Also, you say it's forced apon children and that turns them into automatic Christians, yet on this board alone there are countless people I've debated with that say they went to church as kids and decided they didn't want to follow that life style after they moved out (Or before in some cases) and are Atheist or Agnostic now. This is proof of my Statement above. It's thier choice.




The Accounts of Jesus were Gospels written by Apolstles that were there when he died (and rose agian), When he fead the Five thousand, when he healed the countless people he did and then when he finally rose to heaven and gave them the holy spirit. This is Common Knowldege.

Jesus was a Peasant, actually one step lower in all meanings of the word back then. The Fact that people remembered him at all spoke words about what he Accomplished. In those times his class usually didn't read, they just memorized what they heard. Now, that would make thier memorization skills umpteen times better then ours. As boys they were required to memorize thier sacred texts, Jesus was no exception. That's also a very good reason to why there was no writings from Jesus, Because he couldn't (or didn't) write. I don't think you grasp how close 30 years is in the scale of writing down texts and Accounts. That's not Generations, that's eye witnesses writing things down. No time for the "telephone effect", The people writing most (if not all) of the NT were eyewitnesses to Jesus's life. That's rare in All of History to have.

Like I said before, the fact that Jesus was even written about in any ancient text is a giant clue that he was Signifigant. The amount of Texts written about him equal (if not over shadow) the texts about the Rulers of that time. They may be Biblical in nature, but they still are texts.

On another side note, I'm reading a book called "Jesus, A Revoultionary Biography" It's written by a very well known biblical Critic that has been studing the "historical Jesus" for over 25 years. If you really want to claim no proof for Jesus, This book will rock your world. I'm unsure on if the writer is Christian or not but I see that as a good thing because it's very unbias either way. There are alot of things that a literialist like my self has had to deal with and it's been challanging. It's a hard read, but it's been good from what've been able stumble through.

The most "authoritative" accounts of a historical Jesus come from the four canonical Gospels of the Bible. Note that these Gospels did not come into the Bible as original and authoritative from the authors themselves, but rather from the influence of early church fathers, especially the most influential of them all: Irenaeus of Lyon who lived in the middle of the second century. Many heretical gospels existed by that time, but Irenaeus considered only some of them for mystical reasons. He claimed only four in number; according to Romer, "like the four zones of the world, the four winds, the four divisions of man's estate, and the four forms of the first living creatures-- the lion of Mark, the calf of Luke, the man of Matthew, the eagle of John (see Against the Heresies). The four gospels then became Church cannon for the orthodox faith. Most of the other claimed gospel writings were burned, destroyed, or lost." [Romer]

Elaine Pagels writes: "Although the gospels of the New Testament-- like those discovered at Nag Hammadi-- are attributed to Jesus' followers, no one knows who actually wrote any of them." [Pagels, 1995]

Not only do we not know who wrote them, consider that none of the Gospels existed during the alleged life of Jesus, nor do the unknown authors make the claim to have met an earthly Jesus. Add to this that none of the original gospel manuscripts exist; we only have copies of copies.

The consensus of many biblical historians put the dating of the earliest Gospel, that of Mark, at sometime after 70 C.E., and the last Gospel, John after 90 C.E. [Pagels, 1995; Helms]. This would make it some 40 years after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus that we have any Gospel writings that mention him! Elaine Pagels writes that "the first Christian gospel was probably written during the last year of the war, or the year it ended. Where it was written and by whom we do not know; the work is anonymous, although tradition attributes it to Mark..." [Pagels, 1995]

The traditional Church has portrayed the authors as the apostles Mark, Luke, Matthew, & John, but scholars know from critical textural research that there simply occurs no evidence that the gospel authors could have served as the apostles described in the Gospel stories. Yet even today, we hear priests and ministers describing these authors as the actual disciples of Christ. Many Bibles still continue to label the stories as "The Gospel according to St. Matthew," "St. Mark," "St. Luke," St. John." No apostle would have announced his own sainthood before the Church's establishment of sainthood. But one need not refer to scholars to determine the lack of evidence for authorship. As an experiment, imagine the Gospels without their titles. See if you can find out from the texts who wrote them; try to find their names.

Even if the texts supported the notion that the apostles wrote them, consider that the average life span of humans in the first century came to around 30, and very few people lived to 70. If the apostles births occured at about the same time as the alleged Jesus, and wrote their gospels in their old age, that would put Mark at least 70 years old, and John at over 110.

The gospel of Mark describes the first written Bible gospel. And although Mark appears deceptively after the Matthew gospel, the gospel of Mark got written at least a generation before Matthew. From its own words, we can deduce that the author of Mark had neither heard Jesus nor served as his personal follower. Whoever wrote the gospel, he simply accepted the mythology of Jesus without question and wrote a crude an ungrammatical account of the popular story at the time. Any careful reading of the three Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) will reveal that Mark served as the common element between Matthew and Luke and gave the main source for both of them. Of Mark's 666* verses, some 600 appear in Matthew, some 300 in Luke. According to Randel Helms, the author of Mark, stands at least at a third remove from Jesus and more likely at the fourth remove. [Helms]

* Most Bibles show 678 verses for Mark, not 666, but many Biblical scholars think the last 12 verses came later from interpolation. The earliest manuscripts and other ancient sources do not have Mark 16: 9-20. Moreover the text style does not match and the transition between verse 8 and 9 appears awkward. Even some of today's Bibles such as the NIV exclude the last 12 verses.

The author of Matthew had obviously gotten his information from Mark's gospel and used them for his own needs. He fashioned his narrative to appeal to Jewish tradition and Scripture. He improved the grammar of Mark's Gospel, corrected what he felt theologically important, and heightened the miracles and magic.

The author of Luke admits himself as an interpreter of earlier material and not an eyewitness (Luke 1:1-4). Many scholars think the author of Luke lived as a gentile, or at the very least, a hellenized Jew and even possibly a woman. He (or she) wrote at a time of tension in the Roman empire along with its fever of persecution. Many modern scholars think that the Gospel of Matthew and Luke got derived from the Mark gospel and a hypothetical document called "Q" (German Quelle, which means "source"). [Helms; Wilson] . However, since we have no manuscript from Q, no one could possibly determine its author or where or how he got his information or the date of its authorship. Again we get faced with unreliable methodology and obscure sources.

John, the last appearing Bible Gospel, presents us with long theological discourses from Jesus and could not possibly have come as literal words from a historical Jesus. The Gospel of John disagrees with events described in Mark, Matthew, and Luke. Moreover the unknown author(s) of this gospel wrote it in Greek near the end of the first century, and according to Bishop Shelby Spong, the book "carried within it a very obvious reference to the death of John Zebedee (John 21:23)." [Spong]

Please understand that the stories themselves cannot serve as examples of eyewitness accounts since they came as products of the minds of the unknown authors, and not from the characters themselves. The Gospels describe narrative stories, written almost virtually in the third person. People who wish to portray themselves as eyewitnesses will write in the first person, not in the third person. Moreover, many of the passages attributed to Jesus could only have come from the invention of its authors. For example, many of the statements of Jesus claim to have come from him while allegedly alone. If so, who heard him? It becomes even more marked when the evangelists report about what Jesus thought. To whom did Jesus confide his thoughts? Clearly, the Gospels employ techniques that fictional writers use. In any case the Gospels can only serve, at best, as hearsay, and at worst, as fictional, mythological, or falsified stories
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Old June 4th, 2009, 09:11 AM   #380
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Take, for example, the works of Philo Judaeus who's birth occurred in 20 B.C.E. and died 50 C.E. He lived as the greatest Jewish-Hellenistic philosopher and historian of the time and lived in the area of Jerusalem during the alleged life of Jesus. He wrote detailed accounts of the Jewish events that occurred in the surrounding area. Yet not once, in all of his volumes of writings, do we read a single account of a Jesus "the Christ." Nor do we find any mention of Jesus in Seneca's (4? B.C.E. - 65 C.E.) writings, nor from the historian Pliny the Elder (23? - 79 C.E.).

If, indeed, such a well known Jesus existed, as the gospels allege, does any reader here think it reasonable that, at the very least, the fame of Jesus would not have reached the ears of one of these men?

Amazingly, we have not one Jewish, Greek, or Roman writer, even those who lived in the Middle East, much less anywhere else on the earth, who ever mention him during his supposed life time. This appears quite extraordinary, and you will find few Christian apologists who dare mention this embarrassing fact.

To illustrate this extraordinary absence of Jesus Christ literature, just imagine going through nineteenth century literature looking for an Abraham Lincoln but unable to find a single mention of him in any writing on earth until the 20th century. Yet straight-faced Christian apologists and historians want you to buy a factual Jesus out of a dearth void of evidence, and rely on nothing but hearsay written well after his purported life. Considering that most Christians believe that Jesus lived as God on earth, the Almighty gives an embarrassing example for explaining his existence. You'd think a Creator might at least have the ability to bark up some good solid evidence.
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