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Old May 7th, 2009, 09:59 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by MT-Dawg View Post
Is this bill/law even needed. It seems to me the exsiting laws cover enough of the so called "hate crimes" and ordinary crimes. More laws? I don't think we need em'
I agree. The acknowledgement of "hate crimes" is the acknowledgement of inequality - as if the unequal need additional protection that color-blind existing civil law doesn't already cover. The new Bill is actually racist, as it is founded in and identifies differences among citizens (or redsidents rather, thanks to all the inaction regarding illegal immigrants).


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Is the possible abuse of a law reason enough to not pass a law?
I agree with Hombre. An abusable law is the worst kind. The passing of such demonstrates incompetence and gross negligence in the originating legislative body.
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Old May 7th, 2009, 10:21 AM   #82
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I am also not sure if the law is necessary. We do already have a penal code in place to deal with pretty much anything that is involved in a hate crime. Was this law passed in order to stop someone from performing a hate crime or was it passed in order to give an extra punishment for performing a hate crime? In the first case, I don't think it will help, but on the other hand I don't mind punishing someone more for a hate crime. Could it be seen as another "degree", like the way we have 1st 2nd 3rd Degree murder?
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Old May 7th, 2009, 12:33 PM   #83
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Which rights are granted to us through the Declaration of Independence? Also what laws are based off the Declaration of Independence?
None are granted by it.

All laws are based on those three self evident rights.

You still aren't getting it. These rights aren't granted to you by any document or government. You are born with those rights. That is, in part, what the declaration is declaring.

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Originally Posted by mikesova View Post
how did the framers know that a god gave us the rights to "life, liberty, and hapiness"? Did he tell them?
"We hold these truths to be self evident".....

Also they did not say God, they said creator. That means God to a lot of people but it means something else to others, like Pete who considers his Creator to be nature.

Because you are a self proclaimed athiest you could substitute creator in your mind and read it like this.......

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed at their creation with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

Does that make you feel better?

Now read the rest and try to understand the meaning. You are missing the main point of the statement because you are distracted by your distaste for the word creator.

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Well, back to the original comment as we aren't going to get anywhere in the other argument...Since you believe our government was founded on Christian Morals, what are you going to say when gay marriage becomes legal in more and more states? Are YOU going to LEAVE the country, as you asked if I would?
It's not getting anywhere because you, once again, can not sucessfully defend your position. You fail because you are wrong. You fail because you have a fundimental misunderstanding of the founding documents and their meaning.

The fact is that most of the framers were christian, held christian values, and used those values as a compass when writing the founding documents of this country. Re-writing history to fit your world view doesn't actually change history.

BTW states are allowed by the constitution to pass laws, like allowing gay marriage, that aren't spelled out in the federal constitution. The Federal government is not allowed to do that. It's a form of government we call a Republic. The form of gov't, upon which, this country was founded. This allows people with different views to live in places that have laws they agree with and to leave the places that have laws that they don't agree with. When the Federal government passes laws like gay marriage it forces people to live under laws that they don't agree with, which infringes on their liberty.

State and local level is the proper place to propose gay marriage laws and any other laws that aren't specifcally spelled out in the federal constitution as powers of the federal government.

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
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Old May 7th, 2009, 12:38 PM   #84
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You know, this country used to not give a flying Fawk about upsetting someone, we used to basically be like ...F**K You, just ask japan.....

Now this country is run by a bunch of Pu**ys that are too afraid of hurting someones feelings to do anything. OMG he said something about gay people, he should be jailed.

You know what I say to all this Political Correctness and all that....


F*CK YOU!
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Old May 7th, 2009, 03:45 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by wave_crusher View Post
You know, this country used to not give a flying Fawk about upsetting someone, we used to basically be like ...F**K You, just ask japan.....

Now this country is run by a bunch of Pu**ys that are too afraid of hurting someones feelings to do anything. OMG he said something about gay people, he should be jailed.

You know what I say to all this Political Correctness and all that....


F*CK YOU!

Ahhh, I love listening to history lessons!!
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Old May 7th, 2009, 04:11 PM   #86
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Well, back to the original comment as we aren't going to get anywhere in the other argument...Since you believe our government was founded on Christian Morals, what are you going to say when gay marriage becomes legal in more and more states? Are YOU going to LEAVE the country, as you asked if I would?
No. I will say that it's not a surprise at all because even if our country was founded on Christian like morals, We have gotten away from those morals along time ago. The Framers believed that Everyone had a right to freedom but a creator was the ultimate guide to what is good or not. In the early makings of our laws, it was often asked if of the person proposing the law to show how it was backed in the bible. If they couldn't, the Law ,or whatever it was, didn't get passed.

The Day they started writing the Constitution the start of the meeting was cut short because one of the Founding fathers thought it ought to be a good idea to pray for guidence from God. I'd look up the Reference but I'm sure you'll say it's some bogus reference anyways.

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Originally Posted by 3-foot View Post
None are granted by it.

All laws are based on those three self evident rights.

You still aren't getting it. These rights aren't granted to you by any document or government. You are born with those rights. That is, in part, what the declaration is declaring.



"We hold these truths to be self evident".....

Also they did not say God, they said creator. That means God to a lot of people but it means something else to others, like Pete who considers his Creator to be nature.

Because you are a self proclaimed athiest you could substitute creator in your mind and read it like this.......

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed at their creation with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

Does that make you feel better?

Now read the rest and try to understand the meaning. You are missing the main point of the statement because you are distracted by your distaste for the word creator.



It's not getting anywhere because you, once again, can not sucessfully defend your position. You fail because you are wrong. You fail because you have a fundimental misunderstanding of the founding documents and their meaning.

The fact is that most of the framers were christian, held christian values, and used those values as a compass when writing the founding documents of this country. Re-writing history to fit your world view doesn't actually change history.

BTW states are allowed by the constitution to pass laws, like allowing gay marriage, that aren't spelled out in the federal constitution. The Federal government is not allowed to do that. It's a form of government we call a Republic. The form of gov't, upon which, this country was founded. This allows people with different views to live in places that have laws they agree with and to leave the places that have laws that they don't agree with. When the Federal government passes laws like gay marriage it forces people to live under laws that they don't agree with, which infringes on their liberty.

State and local level is the proper place to propose gay marriage laws and any other laws that aren't specifcally spelled out in the federal constitution as powers of the federal government.

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Thank you. Very well put.
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Old May 9th, 2009, 08:10 PM   #87
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This bill has no business being written or pasted due to the fact that Lady Justice is Blind.



This opens cases up for assumptions and opinions instead of evidence to prove a crime which is what Lady Justice has always used.

This is a very slippery slide. Crime is crime, because you hated a fag and killed him for it doesn't help the victim anymore then if you killed him just because you hated him.

We already have a justice system in place that in most cases works very well. Why is this needed besides to appease certain minorities.
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Old May 9th, 2009, 08:19 PM   #88
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This bill has no business being written or pasted due to the fact that Lady Justice is Blind.



This opens cases up for assumptions and opinions instead of evidence to prove a crime which is what Lady Justice has always used.

This is a very slippery slide. Crime is crime, because you hated a fag and killed him for it doesn't help the victim anymore then if you killed him just because you hated him.

We already have a justice system in place that in most cases works very well. Why is this needed besides to appease certain minorities.


This is liberal government at it's foundation........

More laws, more government control, more muddying the legal system...

Simplicity and clairity dosen't play into there agenda.
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Old May 9th, 2009, 08:30 PM   #89
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This is liberal government at it's foundation........

More laws, more government control, more muddying the legal system...

Simplicity and clairity dosen't play into there agenda.

Nor logic apparently.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 10:12 AM   #90
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None are granted by it.

All laws are based on those three self evident rights.

You still aren't getting it. These rights aren't granted to you by any document or government. You are born with those rights. That is, in part, what the declaration is declaring.



"We hold these truths to be self evident".....

Also they did not say God, they said creator. That means God to a lot of people but it means something else to others, like Pete who considers his Creator to be nature.

Because you are a self proclaimed athiest you could substitute creator in your mind and read it like this.......

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed at their creation with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

Does that make you feel better?

Now read the rest and try to understand the meaning. You are missing the main point of the statement because you are distracted by your distaste for the word creator.



It's not getting anywhere because you, once again, can not sucessfully defend your position. You fail because you are wrong. You fail because you have a fundimental misunderstanding of the founding documents and their meaning.

The fact is that most of the framers were christian, held christian values, and used those values as a compass when writing the founding documents of this country. Re-writing history to fit your world view doesn't actually change history.

BTW states are allowed by the constitution to pass laws, like allowing gay marriage, that aren't spelled out in the federal constitution. The Federal government is not allowed to do that. It's a form of government we call a Republic. The form of gov't, upon which, this country was founded. This allows people with different views to live in places that have laws they agree with and to leave the places that have laws that they don't agree with. When the Federal government passes laws like gay marriage it forces people to live under laws that they don't agree with, which infringes on their liberty.

State and local level is the proper place to propose gay marriage laws and any other laws that aren't specifcally spelled out in the federal constitution as powers of the federal government.

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
That's fine if the founders believed that and that we as a nation have these standards, but my question is, are all people born with these rights? If so, who grants them and how do we know? Do Muslim women in Iran have these rights? Just how self-evident are they? Do all people deeply understand them and just brush them aside in order to not grant certain people their rights? Or do certain societies just come up with their own "fundamental self evident rights"?
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Old May 12th, 2009, 11:53 AM   #91
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That's fine if the founders believed that and that we as a nation have these standards, but my question is, are all people born with these rights?

Yes.

If so, who grants them and how do we know?

Rights are not granted by anyone.

Do Muslim women in Iran have these rights?

Yes but I doubt most exercise their rights.

Just how self-evident are they?

There are no degrees of self-evident.

Do all people deeply understand them....

Clearly not.

....and just brush them aside in order to not grant certain people their rights?

Rights are suppressed in many places because people allow their rights to be suppressed by others, but once again, rights are not granted by anyone.

Or do certain societies just come up with their own "fundamental self evident rights"?

Rights are not granted by society either.
Replies in red.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 02:35 PM   #92
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Replies in red.
How do we know we have rights?
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Old May 12th, 2009, 04:10 PM   #93
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How do we know we have rights?
In this country it is in our constitution, is that not enough? or is there any other rights we need to address?
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Old May 12th, 2009, 04:16 PM   #94
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In this country it is in our constitution, is that not enough? or is there any other rights we need to address?
Don't talk to the naysayer. It only makes him write more liberal, hippy bullshit.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 04:42 PM   #95
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How do we know we have rights?
Why do you think it can't be self evident? Why is an obvious statement like "Self Evident" So hard for you to cope with? Would you rather have it another way? Maybe we have no rights and we are slaves to some unknown leader? The Founding fathers (and many before that I would guess) Looked at this world, the people in it, and saw that we all should have those rights. they believed those rights were from God. I believe those rights are from God. Are you having issues with where you get your rights from because the documents that you usually use to defend your liberal viewpoint are now agianst you and you have no were to go?
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Old May 12th, 2009, 05:06 PM   #96
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How do we know we have rights?

Darwin told us, he said that after God created us we sought the fruit from the tree of knowledge, then we all got smart and realized we have rights.

Thats how we know.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 06:12 PM   #97
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Why do you think it can't be self evident? Why is an obvious statement like "Self Evident" So hard for you to cope with? Would you rather have it another way? Maybe we have no rights and we are slaves to some unknown leader? The Founding fathers (and many before that I would guess) Looked at this world, the people in it, and saw that we all should have those rights. they believed those rights were from God. I believe those rights are from God. Are you having issues with where you get your rights from because the documents that you usually use to defend your liberal viewpoint are now agianst you and you have no were to go?
Is my viewpoint liberal? You say the founding fathers thought that people "should" have those rights and that you and they believed they came from God. What basis do you at least, have to believe that? Keep in mind the definition of belief is acceptance of a claim as true. Is there any evidence for it?

I'm legitimately asking questions. I don't know. I'm curious to find out how other people think.
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Old May 12th, 2009, 11:15 PM   #98
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Is my viewpoint liberal? You say the founding fathers thought that people "should" have those rights and that you and they believed they came from God. What basis do you at least, have to believe that? Keep in mind the definition of belief is acceptance of a claim as true. Is there any evidence for it?

I'm legitimately asking questions. I don't know. I'm curious to find out how other people think.
You should be a chef, the way you stir the pot, you could make some awsome pointless soup....
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Old May 13th, 2009, 08:55 AM   #99
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Is my viewpoint liberal? You say the founding fathers thought that people "should" have those rights and that you and they believed they came from God. What basis do you at least, have to believe that? Keep in mind the definition of belief is acceptance of a claim as true. Is there any evidence for it?

I'm legitimately asking questions. I don't know. I'm curious to find out how other people think.
I posted this on another thread a while back. It's just the start of why I beleive the way I do.

Quote:
I did know! I also know the original intent for our country was to be a Country set up to mimick the Systems that God has put into place. Many of the founding Fathers believed that with out Religion AND Morals you could not have Freedom.


Quote:
"Statesmen, My Dear sir, may plan and spculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which freedom can Securely stand"
(John Adams, "letter to Zabdiel adams, Philadelphia, 21 June 1776," The works of John Adams - Second President of the United States, ed.)

Interesting Website

Quote:
"The Only foundation for....a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican Governents"
- Benjamin Rush (Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical)

Quote:
"And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...Reason and expierience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of Religious Principle"
- George Washington (The will of the people: Readings in American Democracy)

Quote:
Religion and Good morals are the only solid Foundations of public liberty and happiness
-Samuel Adams


Up intill the late 1800 children were taught from a book called "the New England premier". This book taught Exclusively Christian Morals and Lessons. The Way the children Learned the alphabet was through Stories in the bible. A = In Adams fall....
Most Ivy Leage Schools's first Mottos Were exclusively to educate and firther the kingdom of God through the Christian Church.

Harvards Original Motto
Quote:
Veritas Christo et Ecclesiae (Truth For Christ and the Church)
Harvards Rules and Precepts - 1636
Quote:
Let ever student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and jesus Christ which is eternal life (John 17:3) and therefore lay Chrsit at the bottom as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and Learning
Princetons founding statement 1746
Quote:
Cursed is all learning that is contrary to the Cross of Christ
I've just started this Quest for knowledge on this subject. It Frustrates me to know end that we were not taught these kinds of things in School. At Least I wasn't. This is the TRUE history of our nation, weather it's politically correct or not, we should be taught what is the truth and not what has been manipluated by The now Twisted Educational system. At the same time I'm not surprised though. We live in a Country that is falling fast and it's because the System that was put into place by the founding fathers has been cripled by "Seperation of Church and state". Our Governmental System was maid to have God's Precepts as a moral compass to guide it. We no longer have that Compass and it's going down fast. I can only imagen what would have happened if we would have stayed true to our countries foundings and still used God as our compass. Our country would be 30 times more amazing that it already has been.
Like I said, It's just the tip of the ice burg on the different things I've read and have seen. I look foward to digging deeper this summer as I start to read the exact documents that are quoted from.
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Old May 13th, 2009, 07:13 PM   #100
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Is my viewpoint liberal? You say the founding fathers thought that people "should" have those rights and that you and they believed they came from God. What basis do you at least, have to believe that? Keep in mind the definition of belief is acceptance of a claim as true. Is there any evidence for it?

I'm legitimately asking questions. I don't know. I'm curious to find out how other people think.
Do a search on our founding fathers and find out for yourself on thier beliefs and what they wanted this great country to be and to stand for, and I do believe that they were republican with a right point of view and allowed (yes you have a liberal viewpoint) and other people with different views and religions to express themselves freely in this country without persecution. But what I see is the left wingers persecuting people with a view similar to those of our founding fathers. Just my opinion
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