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Old May 1st, 2009, 11:16 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by aber61 View Post
Canada is a different and as you said it yourself the government is a reflection of the views of its people, do you really think the views of what they think is that different from what we think? They do have a very Liberal way of thinking with a very Liberal government running that country. And with that being said we also have a Liberal government now running our country, that the left of this country elected, so yes I would think that alot of people in this country think somewhat.... Liberal. Also from my side of my keyboard I do not feel that I am inconsistant or rambling, my typing abilities well hunt and peck three fingers four at best. Basically what I am trying to say is that I believe this hate crime bill is being pushed on us as a way for the protection of the gay agenda in this country. It is being taught to our children(kindergardeners) not to prejudge gays in our country. I do not think kids should be taught that gay is ok. marriage between one man and one woman. there is an agenda here. Well maybe a little rambling

While I personally don't support or agree with homosexuality, I also think it goes against the very foundation of the United States to discriminate against gays, or anyone for that matter. The United States was founded as a nation where people could come from repressive cultures and escape persecution due to various reasons. Be it the Jews coming here to escape Nazis, British ex-pats coming here to escape the King, Irish immigrants coming to found new bars (lol), Polish people getting lost on their way to Ireland... almost everyone here can trace their lineage to a family that arrived because they were sick of putting up with some other country's bullshit.

I think we might be disagreeing with the laws for different reasons, but at least we're on the same page now.

Smasher touched upon the reason I really don't like Hate Crime laws. He said "Define hate". Obviously, if you dislike someone enough to want to cause them physical harm, you must harbor some degree of hatred for that person, regardless of their color/ sexual orientation/ heritage/ gang affiliation/ etc. The only way to avoid killing someone who is different than yourself is to commit suicide, and even that could be defined as hatred. There's too much gray area, and gray area is hard/ impossible to enforce.
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Old May 1st, 2009, 11:19 AM   #42
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Is this bill/law even needed. It seems to me the exsiting laws cover enough of the so called "hate crimes" and ordinary crimes. More laws? I don't think we need em'
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Old May 1st, 2009, 01:09 PM   #43
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While I personally don't support or agree with homosexuality, I also think it goes against the very foundation of the United States to discriminate against gays, or anyone for that matter. The United States was founded as a nation where people could come from repressive cultures and escape persecution due to various reasons. Be it the Jews coming here to escape Nazis, British ex-pats coming here to escape the King, Irish immigrants coming to found new bars (lol), Polish people getting lost on their way to Ireland... almost everyone here can trace their lineage to a family that arrived because they were sick of putting up with some other country's bullshit.

I think we might be disagreeing with the laws for different reasons, but at least we're on the same page now.

Smasher touched upon the reason I really don't like Hate Crime laws. He said "Define hate". Obviously, if you dislike someone enough to want to cause them physical harm, you must harbor some degree of hatred for that person, regardless of their color/ sexual orientation/ heritage/ gang affiliation/ etc. The only way to avoid killing someone who is different than yourself is to commit suicide, and even that could be defined as hatred. There's too much gray area, and gray area is hard/ impossible to enforce.
Yes I do believe that we are on the same page and also to agree... but about how the hate crime bill will be used is to protect homosexuals feelings and thier rights. You see two gay men holding hands and kissing in Disney land your son says, dad why are those guys doing that? What do you tell your kid? Or do you go up to the two in question and have a few choice words, they do not like what you said and call a cop and then you are looked at as intolerant, hateful and so on, and then here comes the hate police, a crime has been committed, or when a pastor lets say speaks out about their lifestyle from the pulpit that how they are living is wrong according to Christian beliefs, what this country was founded on. I can see nothing good coming from this bill, I believe it is a way to keep the political right in this country quiet. Which in turn will remove our right to freedom of speech.
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Old May 1st, 2009, 02:46 PM   #44
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What the hell? I was trying to compliment what you wrote, not "cherry pick to fit my needs". The reason I only quoted the last 3 sentences is because they are the most important reminder of why a law like this would exist. Your examples of the limitations of free speech are correct, and also textbook, which is why I felt that they weren't really necessary to include (since just about anyone with basic knowledge of constitutional law would already know them).
Thank you for the compliment, sorry if I offended.

Not everybody has basic knowledge of constitutional law, that's why I put the examples in.

Plus, I tend to be long winded at times.......or so certain people have said.
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Old May 1st, 2009, 02:51 PM   #45
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Really? You dont? Define hate

In this context, it involves calling for violent action or genocide towards somebody of a certain "persuasion".

Both the Canadian law and American bill would have more specifics attached to is to define how it can be used.

That church that protests Soldiers Funerals (can't think of the name right now) could be prosecuted under these hate crime laws, depending on what actions they take.
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Old May 1st, 2009, 03:02 PM   #46
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Yes I do believe that we are on the same page and also to agree... but about how the hate crime bill will be used is to protect homosexuals feelings and thier rights. You see two gay men holding hands and kissing in Disney land your son says, dad why are those guys doing that? What do you tell your kid? Or do you go up to the two in question and have a few choice words, they do not like what you said and call a cop and then you are looked at as intolerant, hateful and so on, and then here comes the hate police, a crime has been committed, or when a pastor lets say speaks out about their lifestyle from the pulpit that how they are living is wrong according to Christian beliefs, what this country was founded on. I can see nothing good coming from this bill, I believe it is a way to keep the political right in this country quiet. Which in turn will remove our right to freedom of speech.


Wow, you really hate the gay community. don't you?

First, when my kid sees a gay couple showing signs of affection I tell them those people really care about each other. My kids have grown up tolerant of others. Even the idiots of the world.

Intolerance is not something that is punishable by these laws.

If you saw a gay couple and caused them bodily harm because they are a gay couple, then yes you could be prosecuted under these types of laws, and rightfully so. If you do bodily harm against a gay person because he robbed you, or smashed your car then no, you would not be prosecuted under these laws.


Again with the Pastor in the pulpit. Did you still not read the bill or the Canadian law? His right to speech will not be infringed by this type of law.

What this hate crime bill will try to do is help local prosecutors pursue those crimes that were perpetrated solely based on the color of a persons skin. Or his sexual orientation. Or his religion.
The prosecutor would have to prove that the perpetrator set out to do bodily harm to a person, or group of people based solely on a certain criteria.

I have no problem with the true intent of these types of laws. I just don't see the neccesity to enact them when there are laws on the books already that are not being fully utilized.

Then of course, there is the Canadian Genocide thing. Not a bad deal when you consider what Hitler did.
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Old May 1st, 2009, 04:02 PM   #47
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Wow, you really hate the gay community. don't you?

First, when my kid sees a gay couple showing signs of affection I tell them those people really care about each other. My kids have grown up tolerant of others. Even the idiots of the world.

Intolerance is not something that is punishable by these laws.

If you saw a gay couple and caused them bodily harm because they are a gay couple, then yes you could be prosecuted under these types of laws, and rightfully so. If you do bodily harm against a gay person because he robbed you, or smashed your car then no, you would not be prosecuted under these laws.


Again with the Pastor in the pulpit. Did you still not read the bill or the Canadian law? His right to speech will not be infringed by this type of law.

What this hate crime bill will try to do is help local prosecutors pursue those crimes that were perpetrated solely based on the color of a persons skin. Or his sexual orientation. Or his religion.
The prosecutor would have to prove that the perpetrator set out to do bodily harm to a person, or group of people based solely on a certain criteria.

I have no problem with the true intent of these types of laws. I just don't see the neccesity to enact them when there are laws on the books already that are not being fully utilized.

Then of course, there is the Canadian Genocide thing. Not a bad deal when you consider what Hitler did.
No, I do not hate the gay community or any body for that matter and for the matter of a gay coulpe showing affection for one another in public... well it is not right, its like a male dog humping another male dog, it is not right. The dog does not know the difference but as people we do. I did find a source that may interest you www.conservativetruth.org
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Old May 1st, 2009, 07:48 PM   #48
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Yes I do believe that we are on the same page and also to agree... but about how the hate crime bill will be used is to protect homosexuals feelings and thier rights. You see two gay men holding hands and kissing in Disney land your son says, dad why are those guys doing that? What do you tell your kid? Or do you go up to the two in question and have a few choice words, they do not like what you said and call a cop and then you are looked at as intolerant, hateful and so on, and then here comes the hate police, a crime has been committed, or when a pastor lets say speaks out about their lifestyle from the pulpit that how they are living is wrong according to Christian beliefs, what this country was founded on. I can see nothing good coming from this bill, I believe it is a way to keep the political right in this country quiet. Which in turn will remove our right to freedom of speech.
with time people like you will die away and people will be accepting of others lifestyle choices. Church folk used to preach that inter-racial marriage was a sin, but it doesn't seem to be a big problem now. With time, the same will be true of gay marriage/relationships.
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Old May 1st, 2009, 08:20 PM   #49
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with time people like you will die away and people will be accepting of others lifestyle choices. Church folk used to preach that inter-racial marriage was a sin, but it doesn't seem to be a big problem now. With time, the same will be true of gay marriage/relationships.
True, yes I will die and so will you. And for the so called church folk that you speak of, they still do call a sin a sin. Just because people in general accept the way of life for some does not change the fact that it is still a sin for a man to lie with another man or woman with another woman for sexual purposes. It is just not right. It tears down what the family is all about. I did not make up the rules I only try to follow them.
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Old May 1st, 2009, 08:40 PM   #50
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Here is the typical scenario in which these "hate crimes" get prosecuted:

Two people get into a road rage incident. One driver is white the other black, or one driver is straight the other is a homosexual.........you get the point. A physical fight ensues and while the one is beating the other's ass the victor says (in between punches) "You fucking "insert racial slur here" !" Or, "You fucking faggot!" The police are called. The matter gets reviewed by a liberal prosecutor and the next thing you know the winner of the fight is charged with a "hate crime" and goes off to prison. True story. Believe it.

Welcome to America! The land of the "we used to be free".
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 06:41 AM   #51
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This law is unjust because it go against 'equal protection under the law'. It punishes those who commit crime against a minority part of the population differently than it punishes the rest. That is unconstitutional.
[/B]
Nobody, nothing?

Huh, I guess my argument wins again.
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 07:21 AM   #52
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Nobody, nothing?

Huh, I guess my argument wins again.
Its not a fair fight
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 09:25 AM   #53
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I did find a source that may interest you www.conservativetruth.org

I am fully aware of that site and others that spout far right and far left ideologies.

If you want to live in a far right conservative bubble and have Rush Limbaugh as your hero, then read and believe everything on that site. If you want to educate yourself, question everything on that site until you research enough to get to the truth. I do the same when I visit sites that have a left lean. Takes some effort, but it is worth it.

Oh, common sense comes into play as well. Obama does not have horns growing out of his head, regardless of how often the right says he does.

Did you know there are liberals who are church going, god fearing, gun owning, college educated, business owning, gas guzzler driving, off roading, straight, married people? Some of them actually even are against abortion. Wow, go figure.
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 09:30 AM   #54
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Nobody, nothing?

Huh, I guess my argument wins again.
I don't think there was much of an argument against that here.

There are anti-discrimination laws already. There are laws against violence already. There are laws against conspiracy already.

But, I would argue that it would be unconstitutional if a law singled out just one minority group. I think a Hate Crime law may stand the constitutional test if worded properly. It would have to be a very general law in the respect of who the victims are. Get rid of the minority group aspect. Make it a law that encompasses hate for any and all groups and sub groups of society. Here is a thought, if a black man commits violence against someone just because he is white, and for no other reason, then it is a hate crime. It may even be found acceptable by those that, at first glance, do not support it now.

Just some rambling thoughts
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 09:33 AM   #55
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Here is the typical scenario in which these "hate crimes" get prosecuted:

Two people get into a road rage incident. One driver is white the other black, or one driver is straight the other is a homosexual.........you get the point. A physical fight ensues and while the one is beating the other's ass the victor says (in between punches) "You fucking "insert racial slur here" !" Or, "You fucking faggot!" The police are called. The matter gets reviewed by a liberal prosecutor and the next thing you know the winner of the fight is charged with a "hate crime" and goes off to prison. True story. Believe it.

Welcome to America! The land of the "we used to be free".
True story? Yes, I believe it could and would happen. Probably has in one way or another already. That scenario is not the intent of the law.

But let me ask this simple question.

Is the possible abuse of a law reason enough to not pass a law?
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 10:47 AM   #56
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I am fully aware of that site and others that spout far right and far left ideologies.

If you want to live in a far right conservative bubble and have Rush Limbaugh as your hero, then read and believe everything on that site. If you want to educate yourself, question everything on that site until you research enough to get to the truth. I do the same when I visit sites that have a left lean. Takes some effort, but it is worth it.

Oh, common sense comes into play as well. Obama does not have horns growing out of his head, regardless of how often the right says he does.

Did you know there are liberals who are church going, god fearing, gun owning, college educated, business owning, gas guzzler driving, off roading, straight, married people? Some of them actually even are against abortion. Wow, go figure.
Since you educate yourself and find the truth where is your source that the right say about the horns out of Obama's head, since i have never heard that one. You say you research all your quotes where are they and where is your common sense? oh yeah Abraham Lincoln once wrote common sense is not so common.

I do know that there are liberals that fear God. I would vote for a democrat that had moral values, unfortunately those democrates live in South Dakota.
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 03:03 PM   #57
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True story? Yes, I believe it could and would happen. Probably has in one way or another already. That scenario is not the intent of the law.

But let me ask this simple question.

Is the possible abuse of a law reason enough to not pass a law?
Yes. It is a good reason to NOT pass the law. Probably THE best reason as far as I am concerned. The reason that laws like this get "abused" is because they are ambiguous and vague and are too open to personal interpretation. Bad laws = a loss of civil liberties.

The laws on hate crimes have been prosecuted that way not just in this state but in many others.
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 04:25 PM   #58
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Since you educate yourself and find the truth where is your source that the right say about the horns out of Obama's head, since i have never heard that one. You say you research all your quotes where are they and where is your common sense? oh yeah Abraham Lincoln once wrote common sense is not so common.

I do know that there are liberals that fear God. I would vote for a democrat that had moral values, unfortunately those democrates live in South Dakota.

When I quote, I almost always give the source. Not sure if I have ever quoted without doing so on this site.

My opinion and views based on my life experiences and research on topics are quotes unto themselves, I am the source.

Obama has been portrayed as a devil and evil many times. If you do not realize that, you did not follow the election last year.

Quick search:

http://minnesotaindependent.com/2992...il-horns-photo

http://www.zazzle.com/anti_obama_red...33998380435299

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=96841

Fox News columnist:

http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/20...inkerton_1023/

A man of the cloth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDhijB5hHWY

http://patriotboy.blogspot.com/2009/...-is-devil.html


The devil by omission?

http://mediamatters.org/items/200710120009

Even Chavez thinks he is the devil:

http://www.stoptheaclu.com/archives/...-is-the-devil/




Talk about far right. I am sure you can find plenty of fuel here:

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=488824

An article pointing out the trend and condemning it.

http://latinola.com/story.php?story=6765


There is plenty more. Does not take much to find it.

I made my statement based on what I have read and heard and seen over the past couple of years. Not sure what else you might want.
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 04:58 PM   #59
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Did you know there are liberals who are church going, god fearing, gun owning, college educated, business owning, gas guzzler driving, off roading, straight, married people? Some of them actually even are against abortion. Wow, go figure.[/QUOTE]


I didn't know that, and I need proof.
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Old May 2nd, 2009, 06:46 PM   #60
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Did you know there are liberals who are church going, god fearing, gun owning, college educated, business owning, gas guzzler driving, off roading, straight, married people? Some of them actually even are against abortion. Wow, go figure.

I didn't know that, and I need proof.[/QUOTE]


Besides the church going, god fearing, against abortion (I am pro choice but would not choose abortion) and business owning, I fit the rest.

But, really, I am not a true liberal, I am a moderate who enjoys arguing with conservatives on this site.
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