Hate crimes bill passed - Page 2 - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

Politics, Government, or Religion Chat Bring your flamesuit!

greatlakes4x4.com is the premier Great Lakes 4x4 Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 30th, 2009, 09:51 PM   #21
SammySmalls
Senior Member
 
SammySmalls's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-04-09
Location: Farwell, MI
Posts: 437
iTrader: (2)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

I heard today on the radio that inventory of ammunition is low at many places across the US. People are worried about new ammunition laws restrciting thier purchases so home owners are begining to stockpile. IMO thats like adding fuse to the keg, revolution is around the corner, Obama will set it off...
SammySmalls is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old April 30th, 2009, 09:55 PM   #22
aber61
Senior Member
 
aber61's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-22-08
Location: Commerce Twp. Michigan
Posts: 6,109
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastrt6dakota View Post
Kwame Kilpatrick... is that you? You do realize that Canada is another country, with separate laws and punishments than that of the United States, right?

Hate crimes are bullshit, as said by PeteC, and legislating for them is even worse, but you might want to educate yourself a little bit before you make yourself look like an idiot. Well, again at least.
Hey Idiot you should educate yourself a little or alot. Your friend Barak Obama is only getting started. He has big plans for this country. He would like to see the USA to join the Euorpean Union, which would hold us as citizens the this great country to the laws of the union. Canada is following, with hate crime laws and it is only a matter of time until it is here.. oh wait a minute.. it is here it has been passed and now only a matter of your friend B Obama signing into law.
aber61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30th, 2009, 09:58 PM   #23
aber61
Senior Member
 
aber61's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-22-08
Location: Commerce Twp. Michigan
Posts: 6,109
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yetti View Post
well, I can say without a doubt there are and will be people who would think they are better then others or try and opress others for the shear fact of race, color or handicap. I have been on the receiving end of several in my lifetime. the idea that it can be a punishable offense is a long time in coming.
Long time coming, maybe a few years away. It is coming like a freight train and it will bowl us all over when it gets here. you watch
aber61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30th, 2009, 09:59 PM   #24
PeteC
Get Up and Go
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Oak Park, Michigan
Posts: 2,561
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aber61 View Post
hey no need to apologize. I was only thinking of the future, if things start like this, by so called laws to protect the rights of the minority or what ever they are now, what will happen to these laws when they need to be changed for what ever reason a liberal judge sees fit, to expand the law to.... There is a law in Canada the c250 bill I believe it is...any persons speaking out against gays, blacks, anybody who is different or a pastor from the pulpit, cannot read what the bible says about homos he can be charged. Radio stations from here broadcasting in Canada need to edit the audio to not include what we are allowed to say here in the USA freely in our constitution. It is only a matter of time until it really hits home. It is in Europe, Canada and here... almost, do not be fooled by the slick forked tongue of the nobama and the liberal left of this country. It will be time to revolt soon and revolt we must. I believe our for fathers left a country that did not allow the people to live free. I think we are returning to the past.


I see I have no reason to apologize. There is nothing in the bill to refute what I said.


1.) Since you brought it up, please do some searching and produce a link to an official Canadian Government site that explains this c250 so we can all read it for ourselves. I refuse to believe without some proof.

2.) So, there should be a revolt (violent?) against the sitting government of this nation because of what some people perceive might happen in the future someday if all the planets align?

If there is a clear and present danger to the constitution and freedoms we have, then a revolution may just be in order. But you need a better reason that you don't like the guy, or he might do something. And you should probably have a larger portion of society on your side too. For that matter, plenty of people didn't like the last guy and what he did either. Maybe the revolution should have started sooner.

p.s. I personally believe the ammo and gun shortage is due to paranoia and nothing more. Although I do have a fair amount of ammo in my possession for hunting, target shooting and self protection purposes.
PeteC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30th, 2009, 10:03 PM   #25
PeteC
Get Up and Go
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Oak Park, Michigan
Posts: 2,561
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Oh, and just to throw it out there, the first amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


By the very nature of this government, laws were allowed to be passed to deal with details. Even though you have the right to free speech, you do not have a right to incite a riot. You do not have the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. You do not have the right to defame.

Every right has it's limit. Since other people also have rights. And the rights of the individual is tantamount.
PeteC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30th, 2009, 10:11 PM   #26
PeteC
Get Up and Go
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Oak Park, Michigan
Posts: 2,561
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Since searching is sometimes troublesome for people, I did a quick search and brought this over from Wikipedia. I know, no tthe most reliable source, bu a start. It is late and my bedtime, not spending more time tonight searching. Anyway:

"An Act to amend the Criminal Code (hate propaganda), popularly known as Bill C-250, its title during the second and third sessions of the 37th Canadian parliament, was a Canadian Private Member's Bill that amended the Criminal Code of Canada to add penalties for publicly inciting hatred against or encouraging the genocide of people on the basis of sexual orientation and added a defence for the expression of good-faith opinions based on religious texts."


So, I see a law that brings penalties for those that incite hatred or encourage genocide against people just because they are gay. I had heard about this. I don't see the problem. Doesn't mean you can't talk about it, just says you can not incite others.

Oh, and saying that the preacher can't say anything about the bible? BS. Look at the last part. It allows for "good faith" opinions on religious texts. In other words, if it is in the bible, you can preach it. Even if it is as wrong as a summer day is long.
PeteC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30th, 2009, 10:12 PM   #27
MISHOWJEEPER
NSFW
 
MISHOWJEEPER's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-06-07
Location: Lapeer MI
Posts: 2,239
iTrader: (13)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

I say leave your feelings at home. If you go out in public looking like a flaming faggot, i'm going to at least look at you with disgust, and if you're acting like a fucking idiot, i'm going to call you a flaming faggot. No point in not calling a duck a duck, especially if you're asking for it.
MISHOWJEEPER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30th, 2009, 10:12 PM   #28
aber61
Senior Member
 
aber61's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-22-08
Location: Commerce Twp. Michigan
Posts: 6,109
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteC View Post
I see I have no reason to apologize. There is nothing in the bill to refute what I said.


1.) Since you brought it up, please do some searching and produce a link to an official Canadian Government site that explains this c250 so we can all read it for ourselves. I refuse to believe without some proof.

2.) So, there should be a revolt (violent?) against the sitting government of this nation because of what some people perceive might happen in the future someday if all the planets align?

If there is a clear and present danger to the constitution and freedoms we have, then a revolution may just be in order. But you need a better reason that you don't like the guy, or he might do something. And you should probably have a larger portion of society on your side too. For that matter, plenty of people didn't like the last guy and what he did either. Maybe the revolution should have started sooner.

p.s. I personally believe the ammo and gun shortage is due to paranoia and nothing more. Although I do have a fair amount of ammo in my possession for hunting, target shooting and self protection purposes.
Hey, as far as the c250 law in Canada I will find something on it for you. And as far as a revolt, sure not violent, tea parties, protest, let our voices be heard as long as we still can, can't we? And as for the last guy GW Bush he did a far better job than Obama will ever and could ever do. And yes the gun and ammo shortage... pure fear but no need in getting caught without bullets for your gun
aber61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30th, 2009, 10:19 PM   #29
aber61
Senior Member
 
aber61's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-22-08
Location: Commerce Twp. Michigan
Posts: 6,109
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteC View Post
Since searching is sometimes troublesome for people, I did a quick search and brought this over from Wikipedia. I know, no tthe most reliable source, bu a start. It is late and my bedtime, not spending more time tonight searching. Anyway:

"An Act to amend the Criminal Code (hate propaganda), popularly known as Bill C-250, its title during the second and third sessions of the 37th Canadian parliament, was a Canadian Private Member's Bill that amended the Criminal Code of Canada to add penalties for publicly inciting hatred against or encouraging the genocide of people on the basis of sexual orientation and added a defence for the expression of good-faith opinions based on religious texts."


So, I see a law that brings penalties for those that incite hatred or encourage genocide against people just because they are gay. I had heard about this. I don't see the problem. Doesn't mean you can't talk about it, just says you can not incite others.

Oh, and saying that the preacher can't say anything about the bible? BS. Look at the last part. It allows for "good faith" opinions on religious texts. In other words, if it is in the bible, you can preach it. Even if it is as wrong as a summer day is long.
So you say the bible is wrong? Sure hope you have your house in order when the time comes
aber61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30th, 2009, 10:53 PM   #30
Aceshighxxx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 03-31-08
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 115
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteC View Post
Every right has it's limit. Since other people also have rights. And the rights of the individual is tantamount.
This is all you really needed to say. (Well put by the way.)
Aceshighxxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2009, 06:30 AM   #31
Medic8
You call, we haul.
 
Medic8's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-08-05
Location: Southgate, MI
Posts: 1,492
iTrader: (4)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aber61 View Post
Hey Idiot you should educate yourself a little or alot. Your friend Barak Obama is only getting started. He has big plans for this country. He would like to see the USA to join the Euorpean Union, which would hold us as citizens the this great country to the laws of the union. Canada is following, with hate crime laws and it is only a matter of time until it is here.. oh wait a minute.. it is here it has been passed and now only a matter of your friend B Obama signing into law.
First off, Obama is not my friend. There are very few politicians I agree with, and even the ones who very closely match my views are off from time to time.

Second, if you're going to have a debate and claim things as fact, you should probably start listing some resources. Anyone with an education can tell you that you'll look credible when your sources can be verified.

So, now that we've covered the things that have no bearing on the topic at hand, let's get to the meat of the conversation, shall we?

Canada is a different country with different laws enforced by a different government. The lawyers there still wear the white wigs, for God's sake. Their government is a reflection of the views of their people. We might have similarities, but that "imaginary" line on the map still makes them a separate and non-determining entity when compared to our government.

You mention that our country is great and I'm not going to disagree with you there. Our forefathers had the advanced thinking to make sure that our government would be adaptable, even in hundreds of years from it's founding. The good part is that everything that can be done can be undone.

I can't really tell for sure (in part due to your inconsistant ramblings and shitty typing abilities), but I think we're on the same side of the arguement. I've already stated that I disagree with specific "hate" legislation, and I'm not going back on that. Laws such as Hate Crime laws are discriminatory and are often misused in order to seek harsher, disproportionate punishments for already brutal crimes. It doesn't matter WHY someone killed another person, as much as the fact that they killed someone. Is a gay/ black/ Mexican/ white/ person worth more than someone else?
Medic8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2009, 08:17 AM   #32
aber61
Senior Member
 
aber61's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-22-08
Location: Commerce Twp. Michigan
Posts: 6,109
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastrt6dakota View Post
First off, Obama is not my friend. There are very few politicians I agree with, and even the ones who very closely match my views are off from time to time.

Second, if you're going to have a debate and claim things as fact, you should probably start listing some resources. Anyone with an education can tell you that you'll look credible when your sources can be verified.

So, now that we've covered the things that have no bearing on the topic at hand, let's get to the meat of the conversation, shall we?

Canada is a different country with different laws enforced by a different government. The lawyers there still wear the white wigs, for God's sake. Their government is a reflection of the views of their people. We might have similarities, but that "imaginary" line on the map still makes them a separate and non-determining entity when compared to our government.

You mention that our country is great and I'm not going to disagree with you there. Our forefathers had the advanced thinking to make sure that our government would be adaptable, even in hundreds of years from it's founding. The good part is that everything that can be done can be undone.

I can't really tell for sure (in part due to your inconsistant ramblings and shitty typing abilities), but I think we're on the same side of the arguement. I've already stated that I disagree with specific "hate" legislation, and I'm not going back on that. Laws such as Hate Crime laws are discriminatory and are often misused in order to seek harsher, disproportionate punishments for already brutal crimes. It doesn't matter WHY someone killed another person, as much as the fact that they killed someone. Is a gay/ black/ Mexican/ white/ person worth more than someone else?
Canada is a different and as you said it yourself the government is a reflection of the views of its people, do you really think the views of what they think is that different from what we think? They do have a very Liberal way of thinking with a very Liberal government running that country. And with that being said we also have a Liberal government now running our country, that the left of this country elected, so yes I would think that alot of people in this country think somewhat.... Liberal. Also from my side of my keyboard I do not feel that I am inconsistant or rambling, my typing abilities well hunt and peck three fingers four at best. Basically what I am trying to say is that I believe this hate crime bill is being pushed on us as a way for the protection of the gay agenda in this country. It is being taught to our children(kindergardeners) not to prejudge gays in our country. I do not think kids should be taught that gay is ok. marriage between one man and one woman. there is an agenda here. Well maybe a little rambling
aber61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2009, 08:19 AM   #33
PeteC
Get Up and Go
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Oak Park, Michigan
Posts: 2,561
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aber61 View Post
So you say the bible is wrong? Sure hope you have your house in order when the time comes


I am married to an ordained minister. I was heavily in the Roman Catholic church when I was young. I saw the hypocrisy of organized religion a long time ago. I am an agnostic with athiest leanings.

If God is all powerful and all forgiving he will understand my questions and welcome me anyway (based on what I was taught). And if he does not exist, well, I am not wasting my time. Yep, my house is in order.

I believe in a force more powerfull than I. But, I do not blindly follow anyone else's perception of what that force is.

The Bible, at best, is a story book. It is full of contradictions. One of the reasons there is so much strife between the various religions is the varied interpretations of a book that was written centuries after the supposed events. Stories and legends passed down through many, many generations.
Have a line of 20 people. Tell the first one something, have that person whisper it to the next, and that person do the same, and so on. You may be surprised what the final story might be.
Many events in the bible may actually have happened, many of the people may actually have existed. But, many of the details may have been greatly exagerated over time. Exagerated enough to gain legendary status.

So, yes, I think the Bible is wrong in the sense that it is not accurate. A guide book for those who need or want guiding? Yes. But absolute truth? No.
PeteC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2009, 08:23 AM   #34
PeteC
Get Up and Go
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Oak Park, Michigan
Posts: 2,561
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceshighxxx View Post
This is all you really needed to say. (Well put by the way.)


No, that is not all that needed to be said. Once again, you are cherry picking to fit your needs. This takes what I said out of context.
What I said before that is just as, if not more important.

"Even though you have the right to free speech, you do not have a right to incite a riot. You do not have the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. You do not have the right to defame."

Then add what you quoted

"Every right has it's limit. Since other people also have rights. And the rights of the individual is tantamount. "

And you have the full context of what I was trying to say. Right or wrong, it is the whole thought.
PeteC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2009, 08:26 AM   #35
PeteC
Get Up and Go
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Oak Park, Michigan
Posts: 2,561
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aber61 View Post
So you say the bible is wrong? Sure hope you have your house in order when the time comes


Funny thing about this response.

I put up information about c250, which you brought up.

Instead of answering to the misleading comments you made about this law, you try to change the subject to my personal beliefs. Stay focused, stay on topic. More respect is gained that way than deflection.
PeteC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2009, 08:37 AM   #36
roll-bar Bob
Senior Member
 
roll-bar Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-20-06
Location: M CITY
Posts: 2,768
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

and the pussification of America continues
roll-bar Bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2009, 08:52 AM   #37
Aceshighxxx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 03-31-08
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 115
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteC View Post
No, that is not all that needed to be said. Once again, you are cherry picking to fit your needs. This takes what I said out of context.
What I said before that is just as, if not more important.

"Even though you have the right to free speech, you do not have a right to incite a riot. You do not have the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. You do not have the right to defame."

Then add what you quoted

"Every right has it's limit. Since other people also have rights. And the rights of the individual is tantamount. "

And you have the full context of what I was trying to say. Right or wrong, it is the whole thought.
What the hell? I was trying to compliment what you wrote, not "cherry pick to fit my needs". The reason I only quoted the last 3 sentences is because they are the most important reminder of why a law like this would exist. Your examples of the limitations of free speech are correct, and also textbook, which is why I felt that they weren't really necessary to include (since just about anyone with basic knowledge of constitutional law would already know them).
Aceshighxxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2009, 09:07 AM   #38
smasheromalley
Senior Member
 
smasheromalley's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,038
iTrader: (15)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteC View Post

So, I see a law that brings penalties for those that incite hatred or encourage genocide against people just because they are gay. I had heard about this. I don't see the problem. Doesn't mean you can't talk about it, just says you can not incite others.
Really? You dont? Define hate
smasheromalley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2009, 09:12 AM   #39
steveo
In the band!
 
Join Date: 03-30-07
Location: montana/wyoming
Posts: 20,293
iTrader: (6)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

fucking queers, always trying to ruin our great nation.
steveo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1st, 2009, 11:03 AM   #40
3-foot
Senior Member
 
3-foot's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-21-06
Location: Springfield Township, Mi
Posts: 1,121
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteC View Post
No, that is not all that needed to be said. Once again, you are cherry picking to fit your needs. This takes what I said out of context.
What I said before that is just as, if not more important.

"Even though you have the right to free speech, you do not have a right to incite a riot. You do not have the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. You do not have the right to defame."

Then add what you quoted

"Every right has it's limit. Since other people also have rights. And the rights of the individual is tantamount. "

And you have the full context of what I was trying to say. Right or wrong, it is the whole thought.
Thanks for clarifying that Pete.

The way I see it the only limit of any right is the limit of responsibility. According to the founding principles of this country rights are not limited by law or government you are born with those rights and no man or government can take them from you.

However, with every right comes responsibility. When you lack the ability to act responsibly you can be punished but you still retain the right, in this case speak out.

To use your example yelling fire in a crowded theatre will get you punished for being irresponsible not because you spoke out. If the theatre was actually on fire you would be acting responsibly for yelling out "fire" and therefore not be punished.

To get back on topic. Crime should be punished but the punishment should not be increased because of what someone was thinking or feeling. Hate is an emotion, a feeling. You cannot punish an emotion and you cannot prove what someone was feeling when they committed a crime.

This law is unjust because it go against 'equal protection under the law'. It punishes those who commit crime against a minority part of the population differently than it punishes the rest. That is unconstitutional.

Amendment 14 Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
3-foot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:30 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Page generated in 0.46875 seconds with 80 queries