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Old June 2nd, 2006, 09:22 PM   #21
General Lee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar
Jesus isn't God, either...
Lord, Liar, or Lunatic...
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Old June 3rd, 2006, 01:35 AM   #22
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I'm not a religious person but muslims in general can kiss my ass.
Hows that for PC.
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Old June 3rd, 2006, 01:58 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan
I'm not a religious person but muslims in general can kiss my ass.
Hows that for PC.
My uncle would love you forever.

Anyway...My goal here is not just to bash anyone or anyone's religion, it is more to learn.

If anyone has any deeper insight on the Qur'an or the muslim faith, I would really appreciate it!

(I'm only on page 46 of 844...)
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Old June 3rd, 2006, 02:02 AM   #24
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It doesn't get much better than you have already read.

Dirtass, assbackword people.
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Old June 3rd, 2006, 02:24 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by General Lee
That's a good way to be if you believe it's just about moral standards.
Not if your goal is to get into the kingdom of heaven. You can lead a good life, but without accepting Jesus into your heart and asking for forgivness from your sins, you still will not get into heaven.
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Old June 3rd, 2006, 02:27 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by General Lee
That's my point.

Jesus is the only one to claim that He is God. Not Buddha. Not Muhammad.

No one but Jesus has made that claim. (It's not just Christians considering him to be God. He said it himself!)
Where did Jesus say he was God?
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Old June 3rd, 2006, 02:27 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws
Not if your goal is to get into the kingdom of heaven. You can lead a good life, but without accepting Jesus into your heart and asking for forgivness from your sins, you still will not get into heaven.
That's what I was saying. If you truly believe that it's all about morals...then your system does it's job perfectly. If you take religion to be what I believe it is, you would know that it's so much more than "leaving the campground cleaner than you found it" (as my step-dad always says).
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Old June 3rd, 2006, 02:32 AM   #28
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HAHA...that's a funny quote.

You got me thinking now....I might have to go out and get a copy of this thing and read it just to see for myself.
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Old June 3rd, 2006, 02:33 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar
I think you got like the 700 Club's guide to the Qur'an or something..



That right there is funny.....
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Old June 3rd, 2006, 03:25 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws
HAHA...that's a funny quote.

You got me thinking now....I might have to go out and get a copy of this thing and read it just to see for myself.
That first stuff ain't crap compared to this:

Qur’an 2:216-217
“Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not.

They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islāmic calendar). Say, 'Fighting therein is a great (transgression) but a greater (transgression) with Allāh is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allāh, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Harām (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.

And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islāmic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever.'"

Wow.

Whenever I bring up a religious subject, people always ask me if I have read the Qur'an. I've always said "no" (heck...I thought it was spelled with a freakin' 'K'). I'm glad I'm doing some research.

Muddypaws: Buy it. Read it. Strengthin your own faith.
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Old June 3rd, 2006, 03:42 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws
Where did Jesus say he was God?
John 8:20
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

John 10:38
"But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

John 14:7
"If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

John 14:10
" Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

If you want to get really tecnical, look into the writings of the Apostle Paul in the New Testament:

In 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 for example, Paul writes:

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

What is interesting here is that the term “Lord” is often used in the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) for God himself. Here it is used of Jesus. To use the term “Lord” of Jesus, especially in a context mentioning other “gods,” really refers to his deity. Jesus also does not deny the title "Lord", which basically means that he is accepting the title.

In Philippians 2:9-11, speaking of Jesus, Paul says:

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Again, we have Jesus called “Lord” here, a reference to his deity. But this passage is a reference to Isaiah 45:22-23, a passage that Paul as a trained Jewish leader would have known well:

Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

For a devout, First Century Jew to have quoted this passage about a man, a man who would receive worship that only God himself is owed, is nothing short of extraordinary.

Ok.

That's enough for one night.
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Old June 3rd, 2006, 01:11 PM   #32
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I still do not see where Jesus called himself God. He says God is in him. I also say this, but that goes not make me God. Lord is often said when talking about Jesus, but in almost every passage I can think of and come up with either Father or God is used when talking about the big guy.

Not discounting your interpretations (sp) but I feel that throughout the Bible, God and Jesus are spoke of a different beings.

Now back to the Qur'an....I ordered a copy last night. I have read other religious books, just never got to this one yet. I feel it is important to at least have a knowledge of something before arguing for or against it.

I have stayed out of this forum because I have gotten into many heated debates over my religion, but this one caught my eye and now you sucked me in.
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Old June 3rd, 2006, 01:59 PM   #33
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Ok, I'll break it down a touch...

John 8:20
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

This is a pretty bold statement. You can know me and still have no clue about my father because we are similiar, but far from the same. I can't think of a single person that you would know from knowing me except for me. You don't know Batman until you know Bruce Wayne.


John 14:7
"If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Same deal here. No one knows God through me or you. We are not without sin, and we are not "God enough" to know exactly what God would will at any given situation in time (and we rarely follow what He would wish us to do!). Therefore, like Ghandi said: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” No one truly knows Christ through us, so how can Jesus claim that people who know him know the Father?

Also, your English translated version of the Bible only refers to God as "God" or "the Father", but you need to get into other translations and understanding of times.

An example is in the beginning 1 Corinthians 11

If you don't know what you're talking about, you may think that women cannot have short hair, men cannot have long hair, and other such things. Well, if you explore the times, it was a sign of prostitution. Therefore, Paul is basically saying to fit in with the times and don't make yourself 'unattainable' (too weird for people to relate to) or don't make yourself look like someone that is associated with great sin or immorality (prostitutes). If you do this you may differ people from the faith.

In the same way, if you read your King James, God is only refferred to in a couple ways. If you go back into the culture and lingo of the times, "Lord" was a term saved only for "Gods" (Greeks and Romans had like...32 million Gods). Therefore, used on Jesus, this is declairing his diety.

In the words of Niel Pert, spoken through Geddy Lee (of Rush), "If you chose not to decide, you still have made a choice". Jesus did not deny being called "Lord" (God), therefore he is Lord, Liar, or Lunatic.
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Old June 4th, 2006, 01:05 AM   #34
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I have this shirt.

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Old June 4th, 2006, 01:51 AM   #35
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One more for the night:

Surah 3. Al-Imran

111 (referring to Christians and Jews) "They will do you no harm, barring a trifling annoyance..."

(Same chapter, 118)
"O you who believe, take not as your Bitanah (adviser, consultant, friend) those outside of your religion (pagan, Jew, Christian, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouth. But what their breast conceals is far worse."

119. "Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not..."

120. " If a good befalls you, it grieves them, but if some evil overtakes you, they rejoice at it."

It is hard for me to believe that these people are being taught (straight from their Holy Book) that Christians and Jews are just people who want to harm Muslims and see them fail, and that Christians and Jews want to lead Muslims astray because they (Christians and Jews) are jealous of Muslims.

If you'll all allow me to go informal for a second, this is what confuses me:

If (and it even says in the Qur'an) we can go to Allah and declair that he is the only one that is to be worshiped and be forgiven by Allah, and, if we are, in fact, so jealous of these people because they are on the "right path"...Then why aren't the Christians and Jews simply switching over? Why would we make Muslims' lives horrible and rejoice in their hardships because we are jealous of something we can easily attain?

In a plain English translation it reads like this to me: "Don't talk to them because they're jealous of you, and so they are going to try to trip you and laugh at you while you fall."

DANG! I never knew that I was so jealous and hate filled! The Bible that I've been reading says to spread the word to all nations that Jesus is the risen Lord, that God loves his creations and wants to give us a key to his salvation by forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ...not to try to lead people astray because I am jealous of them and want to rejoice at evil things "befalling" them.

Ugh...I can't read any more of this tonight.

Last edited by General Lee; June 4th, 2006 at 02:24 AM.
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Old June 4th, 2006, 10:07 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General Lee
DANG! I never knew that I was so jealous and hate filled!
And yet you are sitting here, shitting on their religion..... lol...
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Old June 4th, 2006, 11:12 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar
And yet you are sitting here, shitting on their religion..... lol...
First of all, I was focusing on the world jealous. I have no jealousy toward them.

Secondly, I don't believe that I'm "shitting on their religion", as you said. (I didn't post the 2-ply quran t-shirt!!!)

I want to understand why they believe what they believe. I don't agree with it and I don't believe it, but I'm not hatefilled.

Anyway, I've been trying for an intelligent conversation about it. Right now I'm more awestruck than anything. Not hatefilled or jealous.
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Old June 5th, 2006, 02:08 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longarm
Wow, this is some heavy shit! I remember this guy when I was still in the Army, he was a HUGE Bible Thumper. He got so pissed at another guy in our squad over religeon that he took a swing at him. It's a touchy subject. I still say we should back out of Iraq and let the Serbs go in and deal with all them bastards. Screw Islam and the Qur'an. Nothing good will ever come out of that religeon.
Well, to put it into military terms: More damage can be done when you are behind enemy lines.

If you make a statement like you have, it is easy for a Muslim to jump on the offensive because you are acting like the Qur'an is saying that you are acting. You are "trying to throw Muslims off of the correct path because you are hatefilled and jealous."

Only when you have a true understanding of their beliefs and you have read their holy books, only then can you present a reasonable argument.

I'm amazed at how the Qur'an prepairs them and trains them to fight against Jews and Christians (almost every page that I've covered so far 1-125 has mentioned something about Jews and Christians).

Why is Allah so worried about the Jews and Christians???

After all, I wouldn't think you would be afraid of something that doesn't pose a reasonable threat.
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Old June 5th, 2006, 02:33 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar
And yet you are sitting here, shitting on their religion..... lol...


I don't think G L is shitting on anything in his post.

But I, for one, would be more than happy to take a big shit on their religion.

Damn sick of people worried about offending a muslim (not ment for you Jesus ) the hell with'em.

I would love to have nothing to do with the middle east or their oil.
Crazy dirtass pieces of shit.
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Old June 5th, 2006, 07:44 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan
Damn sick of people worried about offending a muslim (not ment for you Jesus ) the hell with'em.
I'm not so worried about offending the muslims as I am worried about being one of the people that they accuse me of being.
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