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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:40 PM   #61
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No we are still on abortion. By your "life" above all you are advocating that rape victims must carry the child. is this your position?

With my original post I didnt articulate thought very well, I was refering to IVF random women and forcing them to produce "life" since that is the only right that matters.
Actually I don't think a rape victim should be allowed an abortion....Again we have a completly inocent life and what we are saying is lets kill that person...They have the right to live regardless of the circumstances surrounding conception. They did nothing wrong...
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:41 PM   #62
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Slippery slope.....let mothers kill their kid whenever they want......limiting there right to kill their kid when they want seems like another ethical question
how can you deny a mother that right....
Some will advocate that you cannot stop her. This is however an extreme view as technically you would then advocate infanticide (which they do).
As a society we have an obligation to uphold the rights of its citizens as long as that does violate the rights of others. A fully developed fetus meets this protection.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:45 PM   #63
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Actually I don't think a rape victim should be allowed an abortion....Again we have a completly inocent life and what we are saying is lets kill that person...They have the right to live regardless of the circumstances surrounding conception. They did nothing wrong...
You are not looking at the consequences of that action. When you do this, you destroy the victim and potentially the child, as what kind of enviroment is that child coming in to?

Would you force your daughter to carry this child in this situation? What if this drove her insane, clinical permanent damage?
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:47 PM   #64
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Actually I don't think a rape victim should be allowed an abortion....Again we have a completly inocent life and what we are saying is lets kill that person...They have the right to live regardless of the circumstances surrounding conception. They did nothing wrong...
Neither did the mother....... you cannot simply violate every other essential human right in this case, if you do you essentially destroy society, and become the CZAR of "life" disregarding everything else.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:19 PM   #65
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 04:50 AM   #66
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Sova, your cartoon was cute and all, but with one huge area of ignorance. It would have been through ADULT stem cells, not from a baby.

FTR: I had nothing to do with the direction of this thread, lol
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 07:24 AM   #67
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Sova, your cartoon was cute and all, but with one huge area of ignorance. It would have been through ADULT stem cells, not from a baby.

FTR: I had nothing to do with the direction of this thread, lol
it's "embryonic", not "baby". Also, this is like a glimpse to the future. We don't know yet what can be done with embryonic stem cells, if something comes of it, then that's where the cartoon kicks in.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 07:25 AM   #68
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I think once the sperm fertilizes the egg it is a human being.
Move to Georgia, adopt some vials of human being...

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/o...n_georgia.html
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 08:02 AM   #69
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Some will advocate that you cannot stop her. This is however an extreme view as technically you would then advocate infanticide (which they do).
As a society we have an obligation to uphold the rights of its citizens as long as that does violate the rights of others. A fully developed fetus meets this protection.
This your opinion, and you have decided to make a determination as when you feel life begins and when you feel you can violate the mothers rights and when you feel you can kill somebody. You are discounting human life and your trying to justify it in your own mind. Without a doubt the most important and over riding right is the right to live, this trumps ever other right, because with out life you have no other rights..
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 08:11 AM   #70
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You are not looking at the consequences of that action. When you do this, you destroy the victim and potentially the child, as what kind of enviroment is that child coming in to?

Would you force your daughter to carry this child in this situation? What if this drove her insane, clinical permanent damage?
Life is the most basic right we have... Tell me how in your twisted sense of justice, killing a baby that has done nothing wrong somehow is the cure for a rape, because that is exactly what your doing....

Maybe the next time you get a traffic violation, or you get into an argument with you fiance you should go find a puppy an bash it's brains in with a hammer. That should remedy things right....

Actually, if through some action between you and you fiance you ended up with a puppy, does killing that puppy make any sense as a result of your actions. Could you justify killing that puppy by saying it's life is a violation of your right to??????
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 08:21 AM   #71
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You are not looking at the consequences of that action. When you do this, you destroy the victim and potentially the child, as what kind of enviroment is that child coming in to?

Would you force your daughter to carry this child in this situation? What if this drove her insane, clinical permanent damage?
Let me see... a woman gets raped and gets pregnant, so lets go kill the neighbor. Sure they didn't do anything, and they weren't a party to the crime but lets kill them....

What if the child was her salvation in life, what if her child developed a cure for a terminal sickness and ended up saving the mother with it's cure, what if the child landed a plane in the Hudson river and saved everbody on the plane...What if you actually had any consideration for that childs rights...

Everthing you come up with simply discounts a life and puts everything infront of allowing a person to live...You are distributing a 0 value on a life as you see fit.

I believe your life is more valuble than my right to eat at Mc Donalds, infact your right to live is more valuble than any other right....same hold true with anybody else...
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 08:25 AM   #72
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Neither did the mother....... you cannot simply violate every other essential human right in this case, if you do you essentially destroy society, and become the CZAR of "life" disregarding everything else.

Your exactly wrong, you must violate every other human right for the sake of life, if you don't you become the Czar of ending life and ending every single right a a person has...

Maybe this would help me understand you better...What right is more important than the right to live...and what right is more basic...
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 09:14 AM   #73
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Life is the most basic right we have... Tell me how in your twisted sense of justice, killing a baby that has done nothing wrong somehow is the cure for a rape, because that is exactly what your doing....

Maybe the next time you get a traffic violation, or you get into an argument with you fiance you should go find a puppy an bash it's brains in with a hammer. That should remedy things right....

Actually, if through some action between you and you fiance you ended up with a puppy, does killing that puppy make any sense as a result of your actions. Could you justify killing that puppy by saying it's life is a violation of your right to??????
What you fail to look at in this situation are the side effects of the rape and subsequent potential child. what you are saying is that this victim has no rights at all and is by default a slave to the "life" inside her. you are essentially advocating a form of slavery.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 09:16 AM   #74
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What you fail to look at in this situation are the side effects of the rape and subsequent potential child. what you are saying is that this victim has no rights at all and is by default a slave to the "life" inside her. you are essentially advocating a form of slavery.
gods gift of free will isnt really free will. you will either follow gods laws or you will be free to burn in hell.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 09:19 AM   #75
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Let me see... a woman gets raped and gets pregnant, so lets go kill the neighbor. Sure they didn't do anything, and they weren't a party to the crime but lets kill them....

What if the child was her salvation in life, what if her child developed a cure for a terminal sickness and ended up saving the mother with it's cure, what if the child landed a plane in the Hudson river and saved everbody on the plane...What if you actually had any consideration for that childs rights...

Everthing you come up with simply discounts a life and puts everything infront of allowing a person to live...You are distributing a 0 value on a life as you see fit.

I believe your life is more valuble than my right to eat at Mc Donalds, infact your right to live is more valuble than any other right....same hold true with anybody else...
your neighbor exmple is not consistent with this argument. The neighbor is not enslaving the mother for nine months or servatude is he?

The mother may very well allow the pregnancy to go to term and keep the resulting child, but what you dont grant her that I do is that right to choose. I dont violate her rights becasue She does not have the same belief as I. When you take away that choice she becomes a worthless individual since you have declared every other intrinsic right we are guaranteed by the constitution as void. You are not valuing her life at all, you are treating her as a means to an end not as an end in herself. If your physician did this to you(use you as a means to an end) you would own his house and be able to buy your own private island.

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Old March 23rd, 2009, 09:26 AM   #76
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Your exactly wrong, you must violate every other human right for the sake of life, if you don't you become the Czar of ending life and ending every single right a a person has...

Maybe this would help me understand you better...What right is more important than the right to live...and what right is more basic...
So If I allow you to live but take away every other right you have, autonomy, liberty, etc. that is ok becausee I allowed you to live? Notice we are discussing ethics not when life starts. For the sake of debate I have conceded this point you, but your argument only becomes weaker When I do so. What you advocate you putting the right to life above EVERYTHING else is slavery.

The right to life is not superior to other intrinsic rights it is equal.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 09:39 AM   #77
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your neighbor exmple is not consistent with this argument. The neighbor is not enslaving the mother for nine months or servatude is he?

The mother may very well allow the pregnancy to go to term and keep the resulting child, but what you dont grant her that I do is that right to choose. I dont violate her rights becasue She does not have the same belief as I. When you take away that choice she becomes a worthless individual since you have declared every other intrinsic right we are guaranteed by the constitution as void. You are not valuing her life at all, you are treating her as a means to an end not as an end in herself. If your physician did this to (use you as a means to an end) you would own his house and be able to buy your own private island.
What about her life, the baby, she or he has the basic right to live, first and foremost.

The neighbor example is consistant in that the neighbor was not a party to the rape, just as the baby is not a party to the rape.

Now what you have done AGAIN is to put the value of nine months of the mothers life over an entire lifetime of the baby. Just the simple fact that you place more value on 9 months vs 70 or 80 years of a life proves you discount human life.

Give me another example of how 9 months of a persons life is worth more than an entire lifetime of another person...After you do I will disagree with you again...

Is my life worth more than yours. Do you truly beleive that nine months out of anybodys life is worth more than your fiances entire life....I don't

First and foremost we all owe everbody the right to live. Nothing is more valuble or has a higher priority than that. My car is not worth more than a human life, and being pregnant for nine months is not worth more than an entire life, your right to freedom of speech is not worth more, You being in prison for nine months is not worth more, NOTHING is worth more than your life or anybody elses life...
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 09:42 AM   #78
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I think once the sperm fertilizes the egg it is a human being. That would indicate then that the 16 or 32 (or even 8) cell human beings you want to study is a human being. Just because those were human beings were initiated via invetro means nothing to me.

Why don't we just pick a group of people we don't like, imprison them and study them at will? You know, kind of like the Germans did to the Jews, Gypsies, people with downs syndrome etc. I honestly and morally draw absolutely no distinction between the two.

I also happen to believe (because the Bible, ie: God says so) that in the end times mans knowledge will become vast. I think we are now moving into areas of science that are helping fulfill those prophecies.

After certain things transpired, God decided that man will live approximately four score and ten. Depending on how you translate that means God says we are to live 70-90 years. I take deep personal affront to people fucking with things which belong to God Almighty. I will not allow those core beliefs to be negotiated with, legislated away AND I'm willing to fight and die if necessary to protect those core values and that way of life.
These people have rights that are superior to those rights that a group of cells have. Even if you believe that life has started at this point, this is the only right these cells have. the people you referenced have the right to life but they also have the right to autonomy, happiness, and every other right you enjoy today. you are not comparing apples to apples
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 09:49 AM   #79
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What about her life, the baby, she or he has the basic right to live, first and foremost.

The neighbor example is consistant in that the neighbor was not a party to the rape, just as the baby is not a party to the rape.

Now what you have done AGAIN is to put the value of nine months of the mothers life over an entire lifetime of the baby. Just the simple fact that you place more value on 9 months vs 70 or 80 years of a life proves you discount human life.

Give me another example of how 9 months of a persons life is worth more than an entire lifetime of another person...After you do I will disagree with you again...

Is my life worth more than yours. Do you truly beleive that nine months out of anybodys life is worth more than your fiances entire life....I don't

First and foremost we all owe everbody the right to live. Nothing is more valuble or has a higher priority than that. My car is not worth more than a human life, and being pregnant for nine months is not worth more than an entire life, your right to freedom of speech is not worth more, You being in prison for nine months is not worth more, NOTHING is worth more than your life or anybody elses life...
The time does not matter, but lets just pretend it does. do the mothers responsibilities to the child end at birth? no they only increase.

Continuing with the idea that time does not matter. Would it then be ok for me to enslave you for a week or month an hour, in order for you to live?
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 09:53 AM   #80
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So If I allow you to live but take away every other right you have, autonomy, liberty, etc. that is ok becausee I allowed you to live? Notice we are discussing ethics not when life starts. For the sake of debate I have conceded this point you, but your argument only becomes weaker When I do so. What you advocate you putting the right to life above EVERYTHING else is slavery.

The right to life is not superior to other intrinsic rights it is equal.
Without life you have no other rights. when you take away life you have taken away every right or even ever potential to have that right....

Your right to live is the very foundation of ever other right...

If you aren't allowed to live you don't have autonomy, liberty or any other right. If you allow the child to be born you still have autonomy, liberty and all you other rights, the worst thing you can have out of this is a nine month inconvienence for the sake of a human life, in your mind this temporary situation out weighs a full human life.

I may agree with you if after nine months we deliver the baby and then cut the mother into little pieces, and justify it as the rights of the baby...

Or we say the mother isn't actually a human life, or the babys rights are to kill the mother because the action of the mother caused the birth and now the baby has to deal with all the down sides of life....

And I noticed we are still talking about human life, you know, from conception.
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