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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:58 PM   #41
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I can't beleive that because some one tells you , for example that prior to 40 days after conception there is no human life, and you would accept that...
That you can't comprehend that on day 39 that is the same person as on day 40, or on day 60...or at 50 years old...

There is not some magic instance other that conception that we become human....You prove this yourself by not having the ability to pinpoint an exact moment to justify your position....You give and about range that supports the position that there is not a clear defined time that we can say we now have a human life other than conception, and from the time of conception for about 80 or 90 years, what started out as those two cells continues to grow to an old man or woman. So from the time of conception if you kill those two cells you will have killed that human the same as if it where at 20 years old....If you kill those two cells no other persons life is ended except the life that starts as those two cells......
Ok, seriously, define Human life. Not, when you think it starts, a simple definition of human life
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:01 PM   #42
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you clearly do not understand my position.

I don't understand how you can discount human life like you do.....

I realize you don't believe human life starts at conception, and the people that shot off Blacks and Native Americans didn't believe that was life either...
I put my stock in giving human life the benifit of the doubt and not ending something we know will grow to and adult, and justifying the action by saying someone told me it's not a human....We all know that if you don't kill it its going to be a baby, toddler, teenager ect....Thats not even debatable, so it's human life
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:02 PM   #43
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I can't beleive that because some one tells you , for example that prior to 40 days after conception there is no human life, and you would accept that...
....
Do you realize that If I were to use this logic my response would be essentially the same just with different dates?

No one told me when human life starts. This is something That each person determines on their own.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:04 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Mr Toes View Post
I can't beleive that because some one tells you , for example that prior to 40 days after conception there is no human life, and you would accept that...
That you can't comprehend that on day 39 that is the same person as on day 40, or on day 60...or at 50 years old...

There is not some magic instance other that conception that we become human....You prove this yourself by not having the ability to pinpoint an exact moment to justify your position....You give and about range that supports the position that there is not a clear defined time that we can say we now have a human life other than conception, and from the time of conception for about 80 or 90 years, what started out as those two cells continues to grow to an old man or woman. So from the time of conception if you kill those two cells you will have killed that human the same as if it where at 20 years old....If you kill those two cells no other persons life is ended except the life that starts as those two cells......

How do you figure conception is that magical moment? Is birth control all together not interfering with the natural order of things? I mean how do you justify letting a spermicide prevent conception, is that not killing a potential innocent baby?
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:09 PM   #45
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I don't understand how you can discount human life like you do.....

I realize you don't believe human life starts at conception, and the people that shot off Blacks and Native Americans didn't believe that was life either...
I put my stock in giving human life the benifit of the doubt and not ending something we know will grow to and adult, and justifying the action by saying someone told me it's not a human....We all know that if you don't kill it its going to be a baby, toddler, teenager ect....Thats not even debatable, so it's human life
liek I said earlier Even if you do assume that it is human life at conception you still ethically cannot violate the right of the other human life involved, the mothers. How do you justify this violation of her autonomy?

We also know that if you plant a sunflower seed in the proper conditions and left alone it eventually will become a sunflower plant. If you unbury the seed bofore that plant forms you didnt kill the plant. That is the negative to you affirmative argument and those dont hold a candle to the cogency of ethics. like i said earlier as much as this is about life, you are ignoring the more important ethical side
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:09 PM   #46
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Ok, seriously, define Human life. Not, when you think it starts, a simple definition of human life

You already said that each person determines when human life begins, so no matter what I say you can merely disagree because in your mind thats a decession you make....Human life begins at conception, because at conception those two cells are going to develop into a baby, toddler ect...

You must go backwards from say 20 years old and tell me at what point the 20year old being began to develop, conception, prior to conception and without conception that 20 year old will never exsist, the beginning of the 20 year olds exsistance is conception so thats the beginning of its life..
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:15 PM   #47
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You already said that each person determines when human life begins, so no matter what I say you can merely disagree because in your mind thats a decession you make....Human life begins at conception, because at conception those two cells are going to develop into a baby, toddler ect...

You must go backwards from say 20 years old and tell me at what point the 20year old being began to develop, conception, prior to conception and without conception that 20 year old will never exsist, the beginning of the 20 year olds exsistance is conception so thats the beginning of its life..
True we both have different definition of when life starts, I respect your definition, it just isnt mine and i will not try to persuade you change your belief on that.

Although, the 20 yr old began to develop when his mothers eggs formed and his father's testes made that one strong sperm. any other sperm would have formed a differnet life, the same holds for the egg. (think about it).

Anyway, no more life debate, it is pointless.

Now, what to do about ethics.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:16 PM   #48
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liek I said earlier Even if you do assume that it is human life at conception you still ethically cannot violate the right of the other human life involved, the mothers. How do you justify this violation of her autonomy?

We also know that if you plant a sunflower seed in the proper conditions and left alone it eventually will become a sunflower plant. If you unbury the seed bofore that plant forms you didnt kill the plant. That is the negative to you affirmative argument and those dont hold a candle to the cogency of ethics. like i said earlier as much as this is about life, you are ignoring the more important ethical side


You don't have the right to decide who's rights your going to violate...The most basic right we have is to live...

And yes if you un earth the seed that has split you have killed what would be the mature plant just as if you ripped it from the ground when it first pops through the earth its not even identifible as a sunflower, but thats all it can be so if you tear it from the ground you killed the sunflower plant , its merely at a different stage of its life...

If you kill a six month old baby did you kill the teenager it would become....HMMM I don't know it dosen't look the same....Same stupid argument...
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:16 PM   #49
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Wow, Bible thread turned into abortion thread in like 1 page. New record I'm pretty sure. I'm with toes on this one.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:18 PM   #50
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True we both have different definition of when life starts, I respect your definition, it just isnt mine and i will not try to persuade you change your belief on that.

Although, the 20 yr old began to develop when his mothers eggs formed and his father's testes made that one strong sperm. any other sperm would have formed a differnet life, the same holds for the egg. (think about it).

Anyway, no more life debate, it is pointless.

Now, what to do about ethics.

I'll always try to change your mind because I belive we need to give each life a chance......
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:20 PM   #51
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True we both have different definition of when life starts, I respect your definition, it just isnt mine and i will not try to persuade you change your belief on that.

Although, the 20 yr old began to develop when his mothers eggs formed and his father's testes made that one strong sperm. any other sperm would have formed a differnet life, the same holds for the egg. (think about it).

Anyway, no more life debate, it is pointless.

Now, what to do about ethics.

We can wipe our asses with ethics, hell we're killing humans, you can't have any ethics....
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:21 PM   #52
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You don't have the right to decide who's rights your going to violate...The most basic right we have is to live...

And yes if you un earth the seed that has split you have killed what would be the mature plant just as if you ripped it from the ground when it first pops through the earth its not even identifible as a sunflower, but thats all it can be so if you tear it from the ground you killed the sunflower plant , its merely at a different stage of its life...

If you kill a six month old baby did you kill the teenager it would become....HMMM I don't know it dosen't look the same....Same stupid argument...
I dont have the ability to determine whos rights we violate but you do? Rights will get violated (depending on definition) no matter which way the issue goes.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:24 PM   #53
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I will do everthing in my power to protect a human at conception just like I would protect a kid at a play ground or a senior citizen....They all deserve that and they all deserve are most basic right...The right to life....without life you have no other rights........
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:26 PM   #54
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We can wipe our asses with ethics, hell we're killing humans, you can't have any ethics....
When you throw out ethics so goes your argument. when you ignore ethics you become simply a person who puts emphasis on one thing and one thing only. When you ignore ethics, you deny the mother the most basic of human rights, the right to her own self regulation.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:28 PM   #55
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I will do everthing in my power to protect a human at conception just like I would protect a kid at a play ground or a senior citizen....They all deserve that and they all deserve are most basic right...The right to life....without life you have no other rights........
I see your point but again, you miss the ethics and fall down slippery slope. By this premise we could impregnate everywoman and force her to carry the child against her will. Even you would agree this is not the way we should operate.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:29 PM   #56
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I dont have the ability to determine whos rights we violate but you do? Rights will get violated (depending on definition) no matter which way the issue goes.

Most basic right is life.....where else do we make the determination that some ones rights are violated so lets kill someone else who has no control over the actions of the person whos rights are violated...lets take the person who at this point has no guilt in anything and we will kill them.....
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:31 PM   #57
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I see your point but again, you miss the ethics and fall down slippery slope. By this premise we could impregnate everywoman and force her to carry the child against her will. Even you would agree this is not the way we should operate.

Did we shift from murder to rape because Im opposed to rape as well as abortion....
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:33 PM   #58
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I see your point but again, you miss the ethics and fall down slippery slope. By this premise we could impregnate everywoman and force her to carry the child against her will. Even you would agree this is not the way we should operate.


When you kill someome what rights do they have left?????
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:34 PM   #59
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Did we shift from murder to rape because Im opposed to rape as well as abortion....
No we are still on abortion. By your "life" above all you are advocating that rape victims must carry the child. is this your position?

With my original post I didnt articulate thought very well, I was refering to IVF random women and forcing them to produce "life" since that is the only right that matters.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 11:36 PM   #60
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I see your point but again, you miss the ethics and fall down slippery slope. By this premise we could impregnate everywoman and force her to carry the child against her will. Even you would agree this is not the way we should operate.

Slippery slope.....let mothers kill their kid whenever they want......limiting there right to kill their kid when they want seems like another ethical question
how can you deny a mother that right....
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