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Old March 22nd, 2009, 08:57 PM   #21
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Your lack of understanding or simple unwillingness to comprehend exactly what the argument is astonishes me. A fetus and a morula are two different things physically, regardless of your beliefs.

How old is the fetus?

I dont want any of those cells for research, they are all too old.

What we are talking about here is the 16 or 32 cell group (possibly 8 cell). What you are doing is proliferating a disengenuious scare tactic aimed at serving a political purpose instead of actually bothering to seek facts. Regardless of your beliefs on when life begins, (which will differ from person to person) you must look at and understand the facts. Which you obviously do not. Even if you disagree (Which I dont care if you do) with the procedure please do so with something that is more than a farce at best and a bold face lie at worst.
I think once the sperm fertilizes the egg it is a human being. That would indicate then that the 16 or 32 (or even 8) cell human beings you want to study is a human being. Just because those were human beings were initiated via invetro means nothing to me.

Why don't we just pick a group of people we don't like, imprison them and study them at will? You know, kind of like the Germans did to the Jews, Gypsies, people with downs syndrome etc. I honestly and morally draw absolutely no distinction between the two.

I also happen to believe (because the Bible, ie: God says so) that in the end times mans knowledge will become vast. I think we are now moving into areas of science that are helping fulfill those prophecies.

After certain things transpired, God decided that man will live approximately four score and ten. Depending on how you translate that means God says we are to live 70-90 years. I take deep personal affront to people fucking with things which belong to God Almighty. I will not allow those core beliefs to be negotiated with, legislated away AND I'm willing to fight and die if necessary to protect those core values and that way of life.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 09:06 PM   #22
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Im not going to argue ethics and metaethics with you as that would not accomplish anything (if you must argue this start up abortion thread again). I dont discredit your point of view, nor was that post in response to anything you said. You referenced IVF, that shows me that you have educated yourself on the process then made your decision. What I was responding to was Mr. Toes obvious lack of understanding on this issue and process. I am not debating the begining of life here.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 09:09 PM   #23
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I also happen to believe (because the Bible, ie: God says so) that in the end times mans knowledge will become vast. I think we are now moving into areas of science that are helping fulfill those prophecies.
I think most people are to arrogant in our knowledge being vast. There are so many questions unanswered, and we have so much to learn. I think that is a vague prophecy that any generation through out history probably had people thinking they were near the end because of their vast knowledge.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:14 PM   #24
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Your lack of understanding or simple unwillingness to comprehend exactly what the argument is astonishes me. A fetus and a morula are two different things physically, regardless of your beliefs.

How old is the fetus?

I dont want any of those cells for research, they are all too old.

What we are talking about here is the 16 or 32 cell group (possibly 8 cell). What you are doing is proliferating a disengenuious scare tactic aimed at serving a political purpose instead of actually bothering to seek facts. Regardless of your beliefs on when life begins, (which will differ from person to person) you must look at and understand the facts. Which you obviously do not. Even if you disagree (Which I dont care if you do) with the procedure please do so with something that is more than a farce at best and a bold face lie at worst.
From the time of conception to the point that particular baby was killed or to 100 years old or 4 cells or 16 cells that is the same person from start to finish...if you kill them at two cells or at 20years old you still killed them...It dsen't matter what name you put on any part of human development it is still a human, and unless you KILL them they will grow to be old people...

It seem thats the part you don't comprehend..
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:16 PM   #25
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Im not going to argue ethics and metaethics with you as that would not accomplish anything (if you must argue this start up abortion thread again). I dont discredit your point of view, nor was that post in response to anything you said. You referenced IVF, that shows me that you have educated yourself on the process then made your decision. What I was responding to was Mr. Toes obvious lack of understanding on this issue and process. I am not debating the begining of life here.

You can't debate the beginig of life or you would have to admit to killing human life......
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:22 PM   #26
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Your lack of understanding or simple unwillingness to comprehend exactly what the argument is astonishes me. A fetus and a morula are two different things physically, regardless of your beliefs.

How old is the fetus?

I dont want any of those cells for research, they are all too old.

What we are talking about here is the 16 or 32 cell group (possibly 8 cell). What you are doing is proliferating a disengenuious scare tactic aimed at serving a political purpose instead of actually bothering to seek facts. Regardless of your beliefs on when life begins, (which will differ from person to person) you must look at and understand the facts. Which you obviously do not. Even if you disagree (Which I dont care if you do) with the procedure please do so with something that is more than a farce at best and a bold face lie at worst.

You have to kidding, this is the issue, if its determined that conception is the beginning of human life than to proceed with a procedure that ends that life would put you in the same category as Dahmer, Hitler, Dr Mengila(sp) or any other mass murder with no regard for human life...

Thats clearly your position so why limit the point at which you end the development of a human being.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:23 PM   #27
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From the time of conception to the point that particular baby was killed or to 100 years old or 4 cells or 16 cells that is the same person from start to finish...if you kill them at two cells or at 20years old you still killed them...It dsen't matter what name you put on any part of human development it is still a human, and unless you KILL them they will grow to be old people...

It seem thats the part you don't comprehend..
On the contrary, I understand your position and I support your right to have your beliefs. What I have an issue with is the fact that you think embryonic stem cells would be harvested from a fetus as in your image. This is not the case.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:25 PM   #28
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You can't debate the beginig of life or you would have to admit to killing human life......
This is not the case, as I stated in the abortion thread. I do not view the morula as a human life. here we go again.......
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:29 PM   #29
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This is not the case, as I stated in the abortion thread. I do not view the morula as a human life. here we go again.......
Just think of the post count you are going to build up.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:32 PM   #30
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On the contrary, I understand your position and I support your right to have your beliefs. What I have an issue with is the fact that you think embryonic stem cells would be harvested from a fetus as in your image. This is not the case.
THere is no difference in killing some one when they are 2 cells or 2 years old you are stopping that human life PERIOD. Without interuption after conception those two cells are a stage of development in what is a human being.....
You started out as 2 cells , after conception there is no further introduction to your being that changes who you are. Prior to the uniting of the sperm and egg there is an infinate possibility of the end result, after conception it's you....

So at conception all we can do is kill you, regardless of the name that is hung on you at any point of development it's still you...Senior citizen...Its you... Toddler...same person...fetus...yep you again....embyro...nothing has changed....it's all you
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:36 PM   #31
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You have to kidding, this is the issue, if its determined that conception is the beginning of human life than to proceed with a procedure that ends that life would put you in the same category as Dahmer, Hitler, Dr Mengila(sp) or any other mass murder with no regard for human life...

Thats clearly your position so why limit the point at which you end the development of a human being.
Ok for the fun of I will take this position and still come to the conclusion of pro-choice. FWIW contrary to what you may think I do value human life.

So lets assume that life does start at conception. Now, ethically what do we do with the situation where the mother wants an abortion? Where do we place more ethical weight? to make a long story short and without a medical ethics 101 course, we MUST put more ethical weight with the mother. It upholds her autonomy which we CANNOT violate. If we do Then we fall into the category as the mass murders you mentioned above. They striped people of their autonomy which literally means "self govern". to force a woman to carry a child she wants to abort would deny her that autonomy. Granted there is more to this but that is the spark note version.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:37 PM   #32
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This is not the case, as I stated in the abortion thread. I do not view the morula as a human life. here we go again.......

I wonder...If it was a couple hundred years ago would you be one of those go with the flow people who insisted that Blacks, American Indians, or a host of other people where not human and killing them was justified....


Just wondering, because they insisted they knew what human life was too....
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:38 PM   #33
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Just think of the post count you are going to build up.
I am actually writing a term paper on this topic and will take both positions in the paper yada yada yada im passing this off as reasearch
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:41 PM   #34
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I wonder...If it was a couple hundred years ago would you be one of those go with the flow people who insisted that Blacks, American Indians, or a host of other people where not human and killing them was justified....


Just wondering, because they insisted they knew what human life was too....
Read my post about assuming your premise. Just because I support pro-choice does not mean that I (well my fiance) would get an abortion. As much as this issue is about the start of human life it is equally if not more about ethics, the two are not necessarily the same.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:42 PM   #35
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Ok for the fun of I will take this position and still come to the conclusion of pro-choice. FWIW contrary to what you may think I do value human life.

So lets assume that life does start at conception. Now, ethically what do we do with the situation where the mother wants an abortion? Where do we place more ethical weight? to make a long story short and without a medical ethics 101 course, we MUST put more ethical weight with the mother. It upholds her autonomy which we CANNOT violate. If we do Then we fall into the category as the mass murders you mentioned above. They striped people of their autonomy which literally means "self govern". to force a woman to carry a child she wants to abort would deny her that autonomy. Granted there is more to this but that is the spark note version.

Your wrong and the easy thing to do is to attack the weakest victim...

Also if your position was to be taken seriously you would have to allow the mother the option of abortion to the time of birth, because if you didn't you open the argument up again as to when life begins and you also violate the rigths of the mother by limiting when she can end her unwanted prenancy...
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:45 PM   #36
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Read my post about assuming your premise. Just because I support pro-choice does not mean that I (well my fiance) would get an abortion. As much as this issue is about the start of human life it is equally if not more about ethics, the two are not necessarily the same.
So can we presume your idea of sport shooting would be the non human blacks and native americans of the day, or maybe you would justify it as reserch....
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:49 PM   #37
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Your wrong and the easy thing to do is to attack the weakest victim...

Also if your position was to be taken seriously you would have to allow the mother the option of abortion to the time of birth, because if you didn't you open the argument up again as to when life begins and you also violate the rigths of the mother by limiting when she can end her unwanted prenancy...
This is true, like I said there is more to this but yes, some who start on this path do take it to the extreme and actually advocate that you must allow late term abortions, up until the actual act of birth. While this is an extreme view it should be noted that it does exist. Ethically the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Somewhere between down the line pro-life and down the line pro-choice. To deny this does not do any good.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 PM   #38
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So can we presume your idea of sport shooting would be the non human blacks and native americans of the day, or maybe you would justify it as reserch....
I am human.


You really do get out there a ways man.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:52 PM   #39
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So can we presume your idea of sport shooting would be the non human blacks and native americans of the day, or maybe you would justify it as reserch....
you clearly do not understand my position.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:55 PM   #40
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I can't beleive that because some one tells you , for example that prior to 40 days after conception there is no human life, and you would accept that...
That you can't comprehend that on day 39 that is the same person as on day 40, or on day 60...or at 50 years old...

There is not some magic instance other that conception that we become human....You prove this yourself by not having the ability to pinpoint an exact moment to justify your position....You give and about range that supports the position that there is not a clear defined time that we can say we now have a human life other than conception, and from the time of conception for about 80 or 90 years, what started out as those two cells continues to grow to an old man or woman. So from the time of conception if you kill those two cells you will have killed that human the same as if it where at 20 years old....If you kill those two cells no other persons life is ended except the life that starts as those two cells......
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