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Old March 17th, 2009, 08:56 AM   #41
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Obama is stepping in. It'll be alright now.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 09:52 AM   #42
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I find it interesting how some people will support the "contracts" that brought about the bonuses, yet they are the first to jump on the idea of ripping up contracts for the average working man.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 09:59 AM   #43
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The Interesting part to me, is how people were all about ripping on Chrysler for advertising with bail out money. Which advertising is required in business to grow and make a recovery.

Yet just giving millions to employees of a failing company is OK. I wish I could just say sorry your car will have to stay in the swamp because I don't want to get wet today, but I am going to charge extra because I want a bonus today. Obviously some one fell short of doing their job, and now get rewarded for failing. Must be nice.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 10:24 AM   #44
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and not defend but just explain, because I am in a similar boat of expecting a bonus and the "company" didn't make money. I'm sure AIG probably does things the same way.

Every year our HR comes around and we have to sign a "contract" which is our Bonus, in lists in details the goals for our department.

Now I know, some states that it being a contract it must be paid out at the end of the year. as long as your not terminated or quit before the "year" term of the contract is completed.

I myself received one, (not from AIG or any other company bailed out from the Gov't) but my company did lose money due to the overall economic issue.

I would EXPECT them to pay up because their the ones that set the metric numbers that i had to meet. It's not my fault they, the company lost money, i just met my "goals" of the contract.

I'm assuming due to the legallity of these bonus / contracts that they must pay it out, unless the company did go belly up.

So blame the higher management for not including a very defined profitibilty clause or a more legal mumbo jumbo contract to include profitiblity.

But to the same point they also want these contracts to manipulate people to focus on what they have control over and not the company as a whole.

Since the gov't "saved" AIG, they should have known this was coming.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 10:28 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by atvextreme View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb here and not defend but just explain, because I am in a similar boat of expecting a bonus and the "company" didn't make money. I'm sure AIG probably does things the same way.

Every year our HR comes around and we have to sign a "contract" which is our Bonus, in lists in details the goals for our department.

Now I know, some states that it being a contract it must be paid out at the end of the year. as long as your not terminated or quit before the "year" term of the contract is completed.

I myself received one, (not from AIG or any other company bailed out from the Gov't) but my company did lose money due to the overall economic issue.

I would EXPECT them to pay up because their the ones that set the metric numbers that i had to meet. It's not my fault they, the company lost money, i just met my "goals" of the contract.

I'm assuming due to the legallity of these bonus / contracts that they must pay it out, unless the company did go belly up.

So blame the higher management for not including a very defined profitibilty clause or a more legal mumbo jumbo contract to include profitiblity.

But to the same point they also want these contracts to manipulate people to focus on what they have control over and not the company as a whole.

Since the gov't "saved" AIG, they should have known this was coming.
Me me me, and I don't care if the company makes money as long as I get mine.

Gee, I wonder why so many company's are failing in this country today.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 10:37 AM   #46
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lol, and you would walk away from the money you earned rightfully??

doubtful.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 10:45 AM   #47
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My company has four divisions. If my branch did their job properly, and our division made a decent profit, I would expect a bonus. It is not my fault if one or more of the other divisions had losses to offset my profit. This money may only be going to people who performed well, despite what others in there company did to lose out so big. Not knowing who exactly gets the money, one cannot assume that the whole package is corrupt.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 11:12 AM   #48
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My company has four divisions. If my branch did their job properly, and our division made a decent profit, I would expect a bonus. It is not my fault if one or more of the other divisions had losses to offset my profit. This money may only be going to people who performed well, despite what others in there company did to lose out so big. Not knowing who exactly gets the money, one cannot assume that the whole package is corrupt.
The whole package did shitty enough, being our tax dollars are what is paying.

I pay my drivers bonuses every year, but if I were to not have the money one year I doubt uncle Sam would cover it for me. It is bullshit, that corporations have this much pull in this country. They get cheaper health insurance, and now the government pays for bonuses when they are run to shitty to make any money.


Communism failed because people in that governmental structure had no motivation to exceed. Everyone got treated equally whether they went the extra mile or not. Welcome to what is happening here now. With out incentive to work people will not work and we are all going to go down. This kinda of reward for failing is this country's worst enemy.


As far as I am concerned, these bail outs are looking more and more like putting bubble gum on cracks in a dam.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 01:32 PM   #49
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agreed,

Corporate America needs change, Corporations spend and spent billions on lobbyists to fulfill their needs.

a company expectation where i work is to donate to their fund. (signing off under duress of course)

Instead of mom and pop hardware stores that employeed millions of households you have corporations, now deregulated, unobstructed dictating benefits and the american way of life. (but damn we love our lower prices these corps give us.)

those in higher management positions are set for life, and those of us who are at the bottom fight for every buck. just the way they want it.

Bring back the regulators, (which, if they do their job, would stop the accounting fraud, stop the market dives and misrepresentation)
bring back the baby bell situations and spread the wealth. stop the monopolies before they even get started.

AIG works world wide employing thousands and insuring billions, why? has no one heard "the eggs all in one basket speech"

but to that same point, those of us at the top of their business ladder will bitch "it's the american way and they fought hard and long to get there"

Pharmeceuticals are a prime example, they invent a new drug and stick a huge price tag on something until the patent wears off before the generic version is released. (of course arguing they need to make their money back on research of the drug.)

the government needs to find a middle ground for all.
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Old March 17th, 2009, 05:48 PM   #50
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The bonuses being paid now are the result of contracts signed last year at this time. As much was we'd like to tear them up and not pay, legally they must pay if the conditions for payment in those contracts are met.

I think what looks so bad is they are getting paid from bail out money, not money generated from business....I wonder if they are entitled to bailout money in their contracts, might be a loophole?????
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Old March 17th, 2009, 07:48 PM   #51
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Be aware:

1) Senator Christopher Dodd ( , CT)authored the portion of the TARP bill (called the "Dodd amendment") that specifically protected bonuses agreed to prior to 2/11/2009.

2) Senator Dodd, sensing the backlash, recommended a "special tax" directed only at AIG bonuses to recoup government bailout money (WTF?).

3) AIG (which received $170B so far) donated over $4M to DC politicians over the last decade - and (guess what?) Senator Dodd was the lucky recipient of over $480K (great than 10% of the total) over that time - receiving over $100K last year. Only one other politician received over $100K from AIG: Barack Obama.

Ain't "Change" great?
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Old March 17th, 2009, 08:35 PM   #52
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Be aware:
3) AIG (which received $170B so far) donated over $4M to DC politicians over the last decade - and (guess what?) Senator Dodd was the lucky recipient of over $480K (great than 10% of the total) over that time - receiving over $100K last year. Only one other politician received over $100K from AIG: Barack Obama.
Theres a shocker!!!
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Old March 18th, 2009, 08:38 AM   #53
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I find it interesting how some people will support the "contracts" that brought about the bonuses, yet they are the first to jump on the idea of ripping up contracts for the average working man.

Wealth envy much?

Come on Pete, no one is ripping up contracts. UAW contracts (I assume you mean) are being renegotiated for the future, yes. The AIG contracts are for work already completed. No one is asking the UAW to return any amount of money they already earned. Not paying AIG bonuses would be the equalivent of that. I don't expect AIG will be offered any bonuses for future work, just as I expect UAW contracts will be heading downward in the future as well.

It's funny that no one bats an eye when the government spends 420 billion on the omnibus spending bill including 9000+ earmarks and says they have to do it because it's "last years business", but when AIG pays last years bills (i.e. bonuses) everyone is outraged. Both are being paid with tax payers money, the difference is that politicians benefit in one and working people benefit in the other. which is worse?

Here's a good couple of articles for the topic......

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...g_outrage.html

quote....

This whole AIG fiasco -- where the entire political class is suddenly screaming over bonuses paid to derivative traders in AIG's financial-products division -- is just a complete farce. What it really shows is how the government has completely bungled the AIG takeover. Blame the Bush administration and the Obama administration. It also shows, once again, why the government shouldn't run anything, because it cannot run anything.

.....end quote. I couldn't have said it better.

another good one......

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...r_bonuses.html

quote.....

Remember, the contracts were negotiated long before the government put a cent into AIG. "The plan was implemented because there was a significant risk of departures among employees at (the company)," AIG wrote in a paper explaining the plan, "and given the $2.7 trillion of derivative positions at (the company) at that time, retention incentives appeared to be in the best interest of all of AIG's stakeholders."

And federal legislation explicitly states that compensation limits for companies receiving bailout funds do not apply to pre-existing contracts.

That was then, this is now is not a valid legal principle. "We are a country of law," economic adviser Lawrence Summers said Sunday. "There are contracts. The government cannot just abrogate contracts." He was right.

But, you ask, what about autoworkers who are being squeezed to renegotiate their contracts? Those renegotiations involve the terms of employment going forward. If an autoworker doesn't want to show up on the assembly line under the terms of that deal, he or she doesn't have to. That's different from telling AIG employees they're not getting the amount on which they agreed for work they've already performed.

...end quote. Didn't I just say that?
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Old March 18th, 2009, 09:42 AM   #54
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Wealth envy much?

Come on Pete, no one is ripping up contracts. UAW contracts (I assume you mean) are being renegotiated for the future, yes............................................... .

I am just going to address this part for now.

There are a lot of people that say let the Auto companies declare bankruptcy. And in the course of that declaration the Union contracts would be ripped up. That seems to really excite some people. After all, all Union members are lazy bums that get paid WAY too much and are the reason the global economy is failing.

I look around every day and see sacrifices being made by the average working person during this global recession.

I see people being laid off from high tech and highly skilled jobs on a weekly basis.

I see our industry making all kinds of changes to make the government loans a worrthwhile endeavour. From the top to the bottom.

And then I see business as usual at one of the companies whose near collapse started the economic downfall we are witnessing and it bothers me.

When things are good, and they have a successful business, I don't care what kind of bonuses they get. But they are not successful and they are using tax payer money to float their business. Yes, I think there should be a reckoning.



No, I do not have wealth envy. I have a good life that I am satisfied with. Wealth has never been a true measure of success when it comes to a persons life. And if wealth is all you use to measure success with, I feel sorry for you.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 10:19 AM   #55
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Had another thought about these bonuses.

Contracts were signed, bla bla bla. Have to honor the contracts, bla bla bla.

OK, pay the bonuses with cash on hand BEFORE the TARP money was doled out. Base it on earnings BEFORE the TARP money was thrown in the pot.

Since they all declared they were going broke, it stands to reason there would not have been enough money to pay these bonuses had the government not given them money.

TARP fund are not earnings.

I am sure bonuses were based on earnings.

2008 earning = dismal = dismal bonuses

Wasn't there talk about these being retention bonuses as well? Some people paid these monies are not with the company anymore.

Wasn't there talk about people at lower levels depending on this for living wage income? Stories I am seeing are these were paid to 70 executives. "Executive" to me does not conjure images of people depending on bonuses for living wage income.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 10:27 AM   #56
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Wasn't there talk about people at lower levels depending on this for living wage income? Stories I am seeing are these were paid to 70 executives. "Executive" to me does not conjure images of people depending on bonuses for living wage income.
Executive = Jack ass in a suit, getting rich off the backs of blue collar America.


Chrysler took shit for advertising after receiving bail out money. Yet a company has to advertise to survive and grow. These bullshit bonuses for assholes that obviously are not the best of the best that they make themselves out to be, does not help the company.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 11:48 AM   #57
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I am sure bonuses were based on earnings.

2008 earning = dismal = dismal bonuses.
You're assuming facts not in evidence.

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"Executive" to me does not conjure images of people depending on bonuses for living wage income.
Quote:
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Executive = Jack ass in a suit, getting rich off the backs of blue collar America.
this isn't wealth envy? Maybe I shoud just say it is class warfare.

These people were under contract to receive bonus x for meeting performance standard y. If the standard was met the bonus is paid.That's it.

Since the bonus was paid,then I'd guess that the standard was met.

If you think that reneging on the contracts is a good idea, then I'll refer you to the constitution......

Article 1 Section 9

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

Article 1 Section 10

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.


AIG should have gone into bankruptcy just like GM should and probably will. Instead we now have a Facist form of government controling much of the banking industry and coming soon the domestic automotive market.

I'm guessing GM is looking at all this and seeing bankruptcy in a much brighter light.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 11:56 AM   #58
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You're assuming facts not in evidence.





this isn't wealth envy? Maybe I shoud just say it is class warfare.

These people were under contract to receive bonus x for meeting performance standard y. If the standard was met the bonus is paid.That's it.

Since the bonus was paid,then I'd guess that the standard was met.

If you think that reneging on the contracts is a good idea, then I'll refer you to the constitution......

Article 1 Section 9

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

Article 1 Section 10

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.


AIG should have gone into bankruptcy just like GM should and probably will. Instead we now have a Facist form of government controling much of the banking industry and coming soon the domestic automotive market.

I'm guessing GM is looking at all this and seeing bankruptcy in a much brighter light.

Since the bonuses were paid with tax money. I would say the standard was not met or was way to low.

And as far as I am concerned the government bailing out any private company is unconstitutional. But 90% of Americans have never even read the constitution so politicians don't have to follow it, and continue to reinterpret it for their own gains.

And it is not class war fair, it is about right and wrong. And bail out money being used to pay people bonuses for failing in a free market is wrong.
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Old March 18th, 2009, 12:36 PM   #59
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Since the bonuses were paid with tax money. I would say the standard was not met or was way to low.
Impossible to say since you don't know what performance standard was used. However using tax money or AIG's money doesn't change the standard or the contractual obligation.


Quote:
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And as far as I am concerned the government bailing out any private company is unconstitutional. But 90% of Americans have never even read the constitution so politicians don't have to follow it, and continue to reinterpret it for their own gains.:
Agreed it was wrong to bail them out, that's why we have bankruptcy. But in for a penny in for a pound. Since the bailout happened and Mr. Dodd signed into law that all bonuses contracted before Feb 11 would be honored, then all your seeing now is the majority party realizing that popularity is going south and they must act outraged to remain popular. Politics as usual.

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And it is not class war fair, it is about right and wrong. And bail out money being used to pay people bonuses for failing in a free market is wrong.
It is class warfare and this is the latest battle front.

What's wrong is that they were bailed out in the first place.

What's wrong is the long list of Democrats that took donations from AIG that are now complaining about all the wasted money for bonuses. Maybe they should give their contributions back, maybe then I won't consider them hypocritical, but probably not.

What's wrong is that they knew last year when the bailout happened that these bonuses would be honored and it's only now that voters are angry that they are pretending to be angry as well.

What's wrong is the Chris Dodd himself wrote the law for the bailout of AIG that specifically stated that bonuses would be paid. Now that it's popular to do so he is outraged (by his own actions). The banking failure was his and Mr. Franks fault to begin with. Hypocrite!

The general public is being taken for a ride once again, and most are clueless that it's happening.

WAKE UP!!!
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Old March 18th, 2009, 01:01 PM   #60
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Impossible to say since you don't know what performance standard was used. However using tax money or AIG's money doesn't change the standard or the contractual obligation.




The company failed and they received 170 billion tax dollars to stay afloat. Enough said for me.
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