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Old May 18th, 2006, 10:18 PM   #1
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Default PA451 Anti-Wheeling Wordage

Here are the areas I have problems with:

Public Act 451 of 1994:

Section 324.81101 Additional Definitions:

(e) "Forest Road" means a hard surfaced road, gravel or dirt road, or other route capable by a 2-wheel drive, conventional 4-wheeled vehicle designed for highway use, except an interstate, state, or county highway.

If you can't get down it in 2 wheel drive you're supposed to turn around.

324.81133 Operation of ORV; prohibited acts:

(e) . . . or in any area in such a manner as to create an erosive condition. . .

Spin your tires and you're moving dirt - eroding it.

(o) In or upon the waters of any stream, river, bog, wetland, swamp, marsh, or quagmire except over a bridge, culvert, or similar structure.

I can agree with flowing water unless it has a rock or gravel bottom that isn't conducive to sedimentation, but how many mud bogs are there in Michigan each year? Does anyone know where to find the "official" DEQ definition of a swamp, bog, wetland, or quagmire? Just what does it take to be classified as such?

324.72105a Adopt-a-trail program:

(4)(c) volunteer groups shall contribute a total of at least 400 service hours over a two year period.

If someone's willing to volunteer, there shouldn't be a 'minimum' requirement, in my mind.

(6) While a volunteer is working on an adopt-a-trail project, the volunteer has the same immunity from civil liability as a department employee and shall be treated in the same manner as an employee under section 8 of 1964 PA 170, MCL691.1408.

Yea, it might sound good, but ask the CCC what happened with their last $1,000,000 lawsuit over their adopted trail maintenance! It doesn't seem to hold up in court as intended.

If anyone has DOCUMENTATION that refutes, or in any way, seems to counter ANY of these statements, LET ME KNOW!

I'm trying to collect a 'wheelin' legal document database.

Last edited by Trail_Fanatic; May 19th, 2006 at 09:03 AM.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 11:54 AM   #2
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Quote:
(6) While a volunteer is working on an adopt-a-trail project, the volunteer has the same immunity from civil liability as a department employee and shall be treated in the same manner as an employee under section 8 of 1964 PA 170, MCL691.1408.

Yea, it might sound good, but ask the CCC what happened with their last $1,000,000 lawsuit over their adopted trail maintenance! It doesn't seem to hold up in court as intended.

the Trail Grant program Pays the grant holder to get the work done. it does not however specify how the grant holder doles out monies. the second thing that has changed is the grant holders Volinteers MUST be insured by the grant holder while doing maintenance. there are no consestions for working without insured people on the ground.

Quote:
(e) . . . or in any area in such a manner as to create an erosive condition. . .

Spin your tires and you're moving dirt - eroding it.
its funny I have yet to see any machine or group of machine move enough dirt that would deprave a trail of passage. the idea of eroding enough soil/sand would be extreme even by our standards. I think I would have to drive a dozer down the trails to do the damage the state describes as hurtfull to the environment.

Quote:
(o) In or upon the waters of any stream, river, bog, wetland, swamp, marsh, or quagmire except over a bridge, culvert, or similar structure.

I can agree with flowing water unless it has a rock or gravel bottom that isn't conducive to sedimentation, but how many mud bogs are there in Michigan each year? Does anyone know where to find the "official" DEQ definition of a swamp, bog, wetland, or quagmire? Just what does it take to be classified as such?
its listed in the ORV law section under "prohibited acts", the side note here is the fact the Hovercrafts are added into the classifiacation ORV. they operate and were desiged for Swamps, bogs, wetlands and marshes by their very design, but because the state and its tree hugger lobbiest ddin't want them here, they are all but illegal to operate because of this law.

Quote:
324.72105a Adopt-a-trail program:

(4)(c) volunteer groups shall contribute a total of at least 400 service hours over a two year period.

If someone's willing to volunteer, there shouldn't be a 'minimum' requirement, in my mind.
I have never heard of the 400 hour requirement. you might be farther ahead to talk to R.J.Witte from the CCC he could shead some light on this as they do the most maintence under the grant program around these parts.
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Old May 21st, 2006, 09:14 PM   #3
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Default Hmm. . .

33 views, 1 post, and none of us really know anything for sure.

I think that pretty much sums up wheeling in Michigan, eh?

I guess the DNR gets an A+ for making the rules available and known. :tonka:


I think it's kind of sad, in a way.
I actually WANT to know ALL the rules and can't find them.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 04:57 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic
33 views, 1 post, and none of us really know anything for sure.

I think that pretty much sums up wheeling in Michigan, eh?

I guess the DNR gets an A+ for making the rules available and known. :tonka:


I think it's kind of sad, in a way.
I actually WANT to know ALL the rules and can't find them.
The problem is the "rules" often are just that... rules written by the DNR and enforced by the DNR because there is no "law" to govern them. One of the things I've been saying for a while now is that any change to Act 451 has to address the craziness that basically says the DNR can do anything it wants if it hasn't been specifically permitted or prohibited by law. And, with the current court precedents in Michigan, the Legislature has no way to stop rules once they are promulgated. So, the DNR can do what it wants and the people we elect to represent us can't stop them unless they hear about it beforehand and pre-empt a rule with a law. Of course, the last three times the Legislature has tried this, Granholm has vetoed the laws, allowing the bureaucrats to continue to run this state like a dictactorship instead of a Republic. Remember this when it comes time to vote in November!!
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 06:29 PM   #5
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ALL the laws are posted in the section above. it right under your very nose.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 07:31 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic
33 views, 1 post, and none of us really know anything for sure.

I think that pretty much sums up wheeling in Michigan, eh?

I guess the DNR gets an A+ for making the rules available and known. :tonka:


I think it's kind of sad, in a way.
I actually WANT to know ALL the rules and can't find them.
Exactly why my wife and I load up both Jeeps and drive 7-8 hours OUT of Michigan to wheel. I would love to wheel in Michigan, but have only limited amount of time to do it. Why spend my money doing something that is probably going to end up costing me more money and wasted time fighting a bullshit ticket when I can drive about the same amount of time and spend my money in states that actually want ORV users in their states. Michigan is really missing the boat with the amount of revenue that could be realized by promoting, permitting, and regulating ORV activity in the state.
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Old May 22nd, 2006, 09:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yetti
ALL the laws are posted in the section above. it right under your very nose.
Sorry Yetti, almost.
The definition of a swamp/ wetland isn't there.

BUT

I did finally find the right link to the 'official' definition using the legislature search link you provided (thank you very much).



THE 'OFFICIAL' DEFINITION OF A SWAMP:

(p) “Wetland” means land characterized by the presence of water at a frequency and duration sufficient to support, and that under normal circumstances does support, wetland vegetation or aquatic life, and is commonly referred to as a bog, swamp, or marsh and which is any of the following:

(i) Contiguous to the Great Lakes or Lake St. Clair, an inland lake or pond, or a river or stream.

(ii) Not contiguous to the Great Lakes, an inland lake or pond, or a river or stream; and more than 5 acres in size; except this subparagraph shall not be of effect, except for the purpose of inventorying, in counties of less than 100,000 population until the department certifies to the commission it has substantially completed its inventory of wetlands in that county.

(iii) Not contiguous to the Great Lakes, an inland lake or pond, or a river or stream; and 5 acres or less in size if the department determines that protection of the area is essential to the preservation of the natural resources of the state from pollution, impairment, or destruction and the department has so notified the owner; except this subparagraph may be utilized regardless of wetland size in a county in which subparagraph (ii) is of no effect; except for the purpose of inventorying, at the time.

I underlined and added emphasis to the portion I believe pertains.
In our case the land owner has NEVER been notified that the area in question is 'essential' and it IS smaller than 5 acres.

P.S. Zookeeper, do you have anyone working on limiting the DNRs authority?
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Old May 23rd, 2006, 08:30 AM   #8
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We are always looking for a way to limit the bureaucracy's power, but nothing specific regarding DNR right now that I'm aware of.
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