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Old November 18th, 2006, 07:50 PM   #1
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I see there is much talk in a thread for an up coming event about the DNR permit issue . The club that is putting on that run has put in a lot of time to get things right . To make a legal run for those participanting to enjoy them selfs . Yes that drives the cost of the event up substantially .

I started this post to put in some facts and correct some inacurate statements as well . I did not want to dirty up there post regarding there run .

This event permit started back with the Jackpine races were held . They did tear ass , rip up the woods and , well it was a race . Its unfortunate that the DNR takes some thing like the permit and twist it to indeed try to keep people out of the public land .

It is my opinion that the " Adminsitrative rule " for the permit is unsound and would not hold up in court if fought on the grounds of being Unconstitutional . Amdinistrative rules such as this are not tested as a normal law is . When a " law " is written it must meet certain standards where as an administrative rule made by the DNR does not recieve this scrutiny unless it is contested .

The Pig Gig was unfairly mentioned in that post . The Pig Gig is held on " private land " and does not require any permit for the event its self . There are small groups that go out and wheel else where but the wheeling at the pig gig is legal as it too is on private land . If there are more then 10 people in any one group they are infact illgal . Last week end a simple ride in the woods took place over near Gladwin . What a shame it was " illgal " there was more then 10 people in that group .

The rule says that if more then 10 people , not vehicles but 10 people are in one place that is an event . So 10 of us go to pick blue berrys we need a permit . Nice eh .
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Old November 18th, 2006, 07:52 PM   #2
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i guess thats why everyone calls it "come eat some chili at the mounds"
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Old November 18th, 2006, 08:06 PM   #3
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This makes me want to have an 11 vehicle trail ride, just so I can get a ticket, and have the law changed.

I can't wait for the day I get a ticket like this.

I hate our government.

Marv, where can I find a copy of this law?
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Old November 18th, 2006, 08:06 PM   #4
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i guess thats why everyone calls it "come eat some chili at the mounds"
The Mounds really cracks me up , the DNR has input there but it is not state land . There permit for things at the mounds has no validity what so ever from what i can see .
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Old November 18th, 2006, 08:14 PM   #5
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Is this the permit application?

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/PR...1_126334_7.pdf


Read the "REQUIREMENTS" on the last page, it sounds to me like you don't need a permit for 10+ people.. See the examples?

And has anybody been busted for not having a permit for offroading? I think this law is aimed at people having a giant party, with beer tents and people selling stuff on public land

Nowhere does it say 10 people, 10 vehicles, nothing. where did you find the key number being 10?

It says 1,000,000 required for an ORV event.

but it doesn't say what an ORV event is
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Old November 18th, 2006, 08:25 PM   #6
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The number of 10 or more people was given to GLFWDA associtaion from the DNR im pretty sure .

During disscusions about this it has been said no one has ever gotten that ticket as far as we could tell , that does not mean some one wont in the future .


I hear all the time snowmachines can do what they want , they get all the blah blah blah . Well lets look at some things here . Back in the 60,s snowmachine riders and there dealerships got active . They also got a lobbyist in lansing .

Full size off road does not have a net work of thousands of small dealers who need that activity to survive . There for we do not have the backing .

off road parts suppliers are getting more active but it still lacks the collective effort needed to fix the problems . With out a Lobbyist in Lansing the real change that is needed will not take place . That is and has been my opinion on this .
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Old November 18th, 2006, 08:33 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandman View Post
The number of 10 or more people was given to GLFWDA associtaion from the DNR im pretty sure .

Not to be a dick, but you stated in your first post 10 people is a law. Now it is just 2nd hand information. And even if "the dnr" told GLFWDA that, who said it? An officer? Just because it was said, doesn't mean it is true.

I'm going through the bills right now trying to find out what the actual law is.

So far I have found this,
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(3nh...me=mcl-324-511

324.511. It basically is giving the DNR the ability to collect fees.. But not giving an outline of what constitutes an assembly

That is all I have found so far. still looking
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Old November 18th, 2006, 08:34 PM   #8
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I am pretty sure the wording is if the gathering holds more than 20 people or organizers charge an event fee, then the event will require such a permit. I am looking for the actual wording right now.
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Old November 18th, 2006, 08:39 PM   #9
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I am not an attorney , nor did i write any of this crap . Im giving the information that i was told there for it is all second hand info .

I suppose a DNR official could have lied , or been missinformed .
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Old November 18th, 2006, 08:49 PM   #10
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Found it...

Taken from: section 504 of 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.504

(h) "Event" means a single, structured, organized, consolidated, scheduled meeting or occurrence which is on state-owned lands and to which 1 or both of the following apply:

(i) A fee or donation is required for participation.
(ii) The number of people involved is 20 or more individuals.
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Old November 18th, 2006, 08:54 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws View Post
Found it...

Taken from: section 504 of 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.504

(h) "Event" means a single, structured, organized, consolidated, scheduled meeting or occurrence which is on state-owned lands and to which 1 or both of the following apply:

(i) A fee or donation is required for participation.
(ii) The number of people involved is 20 or more individuals.

Yep, it looks like 20 is the proper number.

Here is the law governing what is not acceptable on public land without use permit:

http://www.fortunebaycompany.com/Edu...nd%20rules.pdf

That covers almost everything. It does say you need a permit for ANY trail ride. I can't find a definition of trail ride.
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Old November 18th, 2006, 09:29 PM   #12
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Id just about bet this is one of them cases where the DNR them selfs gave an incorrect answer to GLFWDA
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Old November 18th, 2006, 09:54 PM   #13
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I dunno....I have been in GLFWDA for a while and I always knew the number was 20 or charging for an event. We talk about it quite often.
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Old November 18th, 2006, 10:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws View Post
I dunno....I have been in GLFWDA for a while and I always knew the number was 20 or charging for an event. We talk about it quite often.

x2

Marv, I'm sorry I was the one who brought the Pig Roast into that last thread. I still see the trailriding done off your property has against DNR policies. I also see the event we did last week against their policies. It is 20 people in a group, not twenty vehicles

I'm not agreeing with the DNR, I think this is a bogus rule as its state land we ride on, and we pay taxes to live in this state.

Last edited by Roadhouse; November 18th, 2006 at 10:10 PM.
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Old November 18th, 2006, 10:26 PM   #15
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Also I believe the name "Pig Gig" might be a registered trademark to the company who puts on the event in Bay City.........not sure on that but it seems like thier tshirts every year have the little copyrite symbol after the name.
The Bay City event is is called and is registered as the "Labadie Pig Gig". This is just another one of hundreds of "pig gigs" that happen throughout the country. Cincinnati's "Big Pig Gig" is the original and largest according Wikipedia. As long as it is called "Yogi's Pig Gig" in it's advertisements and literature, all is good.
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Old November 18th, 2006, 10:38 PM   #16
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What ever happened to the " Right to assemble " ? They put that in the constitution for a reason . That is where i think there Admin rule could end up FUBAR .


They can make any rule they want , that doesnt mean it is legal . They do not have the right to over ride the constitution .
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Old November 18th, 2006, 11:05 PM   #17
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What ever happened to the " Right to assemble " ? They put that in the constitution for a reason . That is where i think there Admin rule could end up FUBAR .


They can make any rule they want , that doesnt mean it is legal . They do not have the right to over ride the constitution .

You have the right to assemble, as long as you pull a permit.
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Old November 18th, 2006, 11:13 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
You have the right to assemble, as long as you pull a permit.
Then you bring up " undue process "

I should of went on to law school . I have a 2 year degree in criminal law and finished with a 3.9 GPA

The idea of wearing a suit every day didnt sit well with me
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Old November 19th, 2006, 12:21 AM   #19
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you getting a permit for Friday Marv?:tonka:
personally I think you should have to get a permit for a profitable event...not an organized trail ride(we all pay taxes and hopefully all have orv stickers...wich I understand we dont need as long as your rig is registered and insured ...except for Silver Lake,Mounds ect.) .But still that permit should not be 3000.00,thats just insane....I think it used to be a flat 75.00 wich is more reasonable.
just my .02
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Old November 19th, 2006, 07:47 AM   #20
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I think you have the right to assemble, as long as you display an American flag.
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