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Old December 10th, 2008, 07:09 AM   #1
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Default welding to the frame?

i'm making a set of sliders,rocker guards and i'm against the idea of welding to the frame. (right before th control arm brackets)wouldn't welding to the frame make it week? what if i drilled through and made a mounting plate ? that way if they get bent,smashed or what ever i could just replace them. i was thinking 3 holes on both sides.



thoughts or pics of how yours are mounted.

thanks aron
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Old December 10th, 2008, 07:17 AM   #2
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Welding will not weaken it. The factory has dozens of welds on the frame. Just don't quench the welds when finished. Bolts will make the sliders removable if thats what your after.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 07:18 AM   #3
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Oh and mine mount the the body and the two body mounts. I have another brand new set if your interested.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 07:38 AM   #4
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mine Will be a low dough build with stuff i have laying around and will pri end up in the booty fab thread but i got to start somewhere.


it started with a slide from a bunk bed
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Old December 10th, 2008, 08:55 AM   #5
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Yeah, I wouldn't see an issue either. If you are welding something small (not sure what size support will be welded to the frame), you can always weld a diamond shaped plate to the end of the support, then weld the plate to your frame. This creates a larger weld which spreads the force out on the frame.

On older frames, its more of an issue, IMO. The newer the steel, and the better composition of the steel, the less its a problem. What the worry is, is that the heat level of the steel will change its physical properties, both in the crystalline structure, and the carbom content level. Heating can make the carbon in the steel migrate, so some areas will have much higher and some with be low. The higher carbon level at the weld tends to make it brittle and more prone to tearing/cracking the frame at the weld. Older frames have been work-hardened over the years already and don't have an ideal carbon distribution, so welding just makes it worse.

Ona TJ frame, or new steel, I don't see an issue.

Hehehe, for fun, this is a chart showing the different regions of steel, based on temp and carbon percentage. Quenching/cooling also plays a factor. I had those materials classes 16 years ago at LTU, so its a little foggy. But bottom line is each region has different properties. You head about hyper-eutectic pistons for example, thats what it means, the steel is made in a certain process, which then imparts those characteristics to it. Welding can easily heat into some of these reasons, and change not only the local carbon content but the structure itself.

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Old December 10th, 2008, 09:31 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
Yeah, I wouldn't see an issue either. If you are welding something small (not sure what size support will be welded to the frame), you can always weld a diamond shaped plate to the end of the support, then weld the plate to your frame. This creates a larger weld which spreads the force out on the frame.
I would do that, no question
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Old December 10th, 2008, 10:32 AM   #7
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the heat is what i was worried about. my thought is that if i'm getting the steel hot enough to melt (weld) that it would make for a crumple zone of sorts in a already busy area of the frame because of the control arm and track bar brackets that are already there.

i like the diamond trick. seems it would work well
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Old December 10th, 2008, 10:46 AM   #8
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wait according to bigcountry's math i would need 33 holes. thats way to many, i guess i'll just weld
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Old December 10th, 2008, 11:34 AM   #9
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Just take into consideration how many of us have done lots of welding on our frames without trouble.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 11:41 AM   #10
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Just take into consideration how many of us have done lots of welding on our frames without trouble.
i understand that. i just wanted oppinions rather then assume it was good to do.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 01:48 PM   #11
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Quote:
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I was going to draw that up real quick from memory but I didn't have time.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 02:23 PM   #12
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Does anyone even know what type of material they are making frames out of? If it's a low alloy non heat treated, alot of this doesn't apply. I'm going to have the company Explorer checked tomorrow.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 03:29 PM   #13
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I would do that, no question
I always have. THe nice thing is that if you make your diamond plate run basically from the top to bottom of the frame, you spread out the force a lot more. Its also spreading that force out off the middle up to the top/bottom which are more 'supported' by the horizontal sections of the frame.

Otherwise, when, say you are jacking up the frame, you aren't just at a risk of crack the frame weld, but also the frame itself wants to twist/bend/rip the frame just beyond the weld. When Iv'e seen them fail due to bad design, its been this, where it tears out the frame just past the weld.



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Does anyone even know what type of material they are making frames out of? If it's a low alloy non heat treated, alot of this doesn't apply. I'm going to have the company Explorer checked tomorrow.
Not sure, really.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 03:45 PM   #14
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Does anyone even know what type of material they are making frames out of? If it's a low alloy non heat treated, alot of this doesn't apply. I'm going to have the company Explorer checked tomorrow.
how would you go about that?
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Old December 10th, 2008, 03:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
I always have. THe nice thing is that if you make your diamond plate run basically from the top to bottom of the frame, you spread out the force a lot more. Its also spreading that force out off the middle up to the top/bottom which are more 'supported' by the horizontal sections of the frame.

Otherwise, when, say you are jacking up the frame, you aren't just at a risk of crack the frame weld, but also the frame itself wants to twist/bend/rip the frame just beyond the weld. When Iv'e seen them fail due to bad design, its been this, where it tears out the frame just past the weld.





Not sure, really.



this is exactaly what i was talking about. your just agazillion times smarter than me.

say i butted the plate as close to the c.a. bracket as i could to get a good beed. wouldn't that make the small erea in between weak ? idk how weak but it would have been heated up twice.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 03:59 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Does anyone even know what type of material they are making frames out of? If it's a low alloy non heat treated, alot of this doesn't apply. I'm going to have the company Explorer checked tomorrow.

i am pretty sure they are made of metal. i think wood wouldnt be strong enough...
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Old December 10th, 2008, 04:10 PM   #17
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They have a gun of sorts that can scan a piece and tell you exactly what the contents are in the material. Scrap yards use them too for sorting different types of alloys.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 04:13 PM   #18
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they're not heat treated thats for sure, welding on them wont hurt anything. the frames are soft, i doubt there even in the C range. if someone gets me a piece of one i will check. ill check chemistry composition too! but i dont think welding will weakin it what so ever.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 05:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvitmyjeep View Post
how would you go about that?
We have a material analyzer in our QA department. As Tab said, it basically sparks the material and reads the gasses that are emitted. Therefore, it's non destructive.

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I'm going to have the company Explorer checked tomorrow.
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Originally Posted by bacongrease View Post
they're not heat treated thats for sure, welding on them wont hurt anything. the frames are soft, i doubt there even in the C range. if someone gets me a piece of one i will check. ill check chemistry composition too! but i dont think welding will weakin it what so ever.
That's what I'm going to do. I left a note for my day shift QA guy to pull the company Explorer in the shop and spark it. Also told him to hit the hardness. Like you, I doubt we'll find anything other than low carbon soft steel. But, by 8:30am tomorrow I should be able to post results. Next time I drive the jeep in I'll spark it too.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 06:44 PM   #20
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so is this something you guys encounter in your Field of work? how does someone like me come across such info?
i luv this stuff!
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