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Old November 3rd, 2008, 08:15 AM   #1
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Default Proposal 2 in Michigan. Anybody have a view on this?

This is the only thing I'm left deciding in this election.

Here is how it will read on the ballot:

A PROPOSAL TO AMEND THE STATE CONSTITUTION TO ADDRESS HUMAN EMBRYO AND HUMAN EMBRYONIC STEM CELL RESEARCH IN MICHIGAN

The proposed constitutional amendment would:

* Expand use of human embryos for any research permitted under federal law subject to the following limits: the embryos –

– are created for fertility treatment purposes;

– are not suitable for implantation or are in excess of clinical needs;

– would be discarded unless used for research;

– were donated by the person seeking fertility treatment.

* Provide that stem cells cannot be taken from human embryos more than 14 days after cell division begins.
* Prohibit any person from selling or purchasing human embryos for stem cell research.
* Prohibit state and local laws that prevent, restrict or discourage stem cell research, future therapies and cures.




Here is the amendment:


INITIATIVE PETITION AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION

A Proposal to Amend the Constitution of the State of Michigan by adding a new Article I, Section 27 as follows:

Article I, Section 27.

(1) Nothing in this section shall alter Michigan’s current prohibition on human cloning.

(2) To ensure that Michigan citizens have access to stem cell therapies and cures, and to ensure that physicians and researchers can conduct the most promising forms of medical research in this state, and that all such research is conducted safely and ethically, any research permitted under federal law on human embryos may be conducted in Michigan, subject to the requirements of federal law and only the following additional limitations and requirements:

(a) No stem cells may be taken from a human embryo more than fourteen days after cell division begins; provided, however, that time during which an embryo is frozen does not count against this fourteen day limit.

(b) The human embryos were created for the purpose of fertility treatment and, with voluntary and informed consent, documented in writing, the person seeking fertility treatment chose to donate the embryos for research; and

i. the embryos were in excess of the clinical need of the person seeking the fertility treatment and would otherwise be discarded unless they are used for research; or

ii. the embryos were not suitable for implantation and would otherwise be discarded unless they are used for research.

(c) No person may, for valuable consideration, purchase or sell human embryos for stem cell research or stem cell therapies and cures.

(d) All stem cell research and all stem cell therapies and cures must be conducted and provided in accordance with state and local laws of general applicability, including but not limited to laws concerning scientific and medical practices and patient safety and privacy, to the extent that any such laws do not:

i. prevent, restrict, obstruct, or discourage any stem cell research or stem cell therapies and cures that are permitted by the provisions of this section; or

ii. create disincentives for any person to engage in or otherwise associate with such research or therapies or cures.

(3) Any provision of this section held unconstitutional shall be severable from the remaining portions of this section.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 09:00 AM   #2
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that's funny that you posted that since I just read the language on http://madanthony.publius.org/ and was wondering the same thing. I headed to the best place for factual information, GL4x4 for guidance....


I'm not sure, but I'm leaning toward supporting this. I have briefly read the "pros" and "cons" and I'm thinking that this may be in the better interest of the state.

Will it lead to cloning? Not so sure, but I guess there's always a chance. However, if it can help find cures and better treatments for diseases that currently aren't curable, then I think it is worth pursuing.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 09:02 AM   #3
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if the ship is seaworthy sure i'll go sailing...




im in support of stem cell research.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 09:22 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PetalMel View Post
that's funny that you posted that since I just read the language on http://madanthony.publius.org/ and was wondering the same thing. I headed to the best place for factual information, GL4x4 for guidance....


I'm not sure, but I'm leaning toward supporting this. I have briefly read the "pros" and "cons" and I'm thinking that this may be in the better interest of the state.

Will it lead to cloning? Not so sure, but I guess there's always a chance. However, if it can help find cures and better treatments for diseases that currently aren't curable, then I think it is worth pursuing.
This is what I'm confused about:

"
(c) No person may, for valuable consideration, purchase or sell human embryos for stem cell research or stem cell therapies and cures."

huh?

Is that stopping the "stem cell farms"?
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 09:28 AM   #5
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 10:59 AM   #6
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From what I understand, the big issue is granting STATE FUNDING for the research.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 11:07 AM   #7
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From what I understand, the big issue is granting STATE FUNDING for the research.

. . . which is why I voted against it (absentee ballot)
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 11:16 AM   #8
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. . . which is why I voted against it (absentee ballot)
Precisely - we're about as broke as can be.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 11:17 AM   #9
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I also do not think it should be publicly funded. The private sector will find the value in it if there is any.

The only government involvement i would support is some kind of regulation committee. As this type of research could get real shady real quick and companies should be watched.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 11:33 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScOoTeR View Post
From what I understand, the big issue is granting STATE FUNDING for the research.
Please show me where in the proposal it mentions state funding.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 11:57 AM   #11
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Please show me where in the proposal it mentions state funding.
Sorry, I can't. I listed to a couple of speakers on NPR last week that highlighted the state funding.

I'm again sorry, but I cannot find proof of what was said online.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 12:53 PM   #12
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Quote:
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Please show me where in the proposal it mentions state funding.
It's being voted for as a state proposal. It does not list private funding...who else is going to fund it? Santa Claus?
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 02:10 PM   #13
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Quote:
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It's being voted for as a state proposal. It does not list private funding...who else is going to fund it? Santa Claus?
Just because something is allowed does not make it state funded.

This proposal will bring what is allowed in this state in sync with what is allowed federally, no more, no less.

It also spells out where the research material can come from and adds a provision to make sure people do not have abortions just to make money on said material.

This is my take on what I read of this proposal earlier.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 03:24 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by PeteC View Post
Just because something is allowed does not make it state funded.

This proposal will bring what is allowed in this state in sync with what is allowed federally, no more, no less.

It also spells out where the research material can come from and adds a provision to make sure people do not have abortions just to make money on said material.

This is my take on what I read of this proposal earlier.
I guess so. I'm just assuming that it doesn't say it will not be state funded, I'm not going to trust that state funding won't be used just because it doesn't say whether it is or is not.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 03:56 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
It's being voted for as a state proposal. It does not list private funding...who else is going to fund it? Santa Claus?
ummm, no.

It makes it leagal from private companies to persue stem cell research. I will very rarely vote against anything that is technical based. I'm voting Yes.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 04:13 PM   #16
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Quote:
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I guess so. I'm just assuming that it doesn't say it will not be state funded, I'm not going to trust that state funding won't be used just because it doesn't say whether it is or is not.
Now that's the whole problem. You assume instead of educating yourself. (GM this isnt an attack at you. By you I mean most people)

This is not a funding prop. It is a issue of legality.

Why not use the cells for research? They are already here and if they are not used for research they are going in the toilet(or where ever they dispose of them).

Personally I would like to see more money going into finding cures for diseases than a welfare check to a crackhead.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 04:28 PM   #17
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Now that's the whole problem. You assume instead of educating yourself. (GM this isnt an attack at you. By you I mean most people)

This is not a funding prop. It is a issue of legality.

Why not use the cells for research? They are already here and if they are not used for research they are going in the toilet(or where ever they dispose of them).

Personally I would like to see more money going into finding cures for diseases than a welfare check to a crackhead.
If it doesn't state where the money is coming from, what am I supposed to think?

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Originally Posted by Bones View Post
ummm, no.

It makes it leagal from private companies to persue stem cell research. I will very rarely vote against anything that is technical based. I'm voting Yes.
Where does it say that?
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 04:39 PM   #18
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How can you guys believe we won't be paying for it?

If it doesn't specifically say it won't be funded you know it will be. By grants or riders on other bills later.

How many private companies are looking to leave the other 45 states for Michigan's business climate and taxes?
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 06:23 PM   #19
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It specifically allows embryonic stem cell research.

Adult stem cell research - where * every * successful discovery and application has come from is already allowed - and federal funding is available as well.

The "promise" of embryonic stem cell research is more media hype and hyperbole than reality. I take my information on scientific matters from scientists - not Michael J. Fox.

Let's let adult stem cell research (which is still in it's infancy, pardon the pun) play itself out before getting into the ethically ambiguous areas of embryonic stem cell research.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 08:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
If it doesn't state where the money is coming from, what am I supposed to think?

You aren't. You are supposed to research it and find out the answer. Either that or vote on the actual proposal and not what you think it is.
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