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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:39 PM   #41
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I think that the reason that adult stem cells have proven to be successful is because they are obviously more readilly available for research and they are understood much better. The stem cells out of a fetus are much more complex, meaning that more time is needed to study them and find uses, and they also have much more potential. I did find this though.

Stem cells proven to treat heart damage


For the first time ever, scientists were able to show that stem cells from a healthy donor baby’s blood can transform into the specialized cell type that a patient needs. The patient was a four-year old boy with Sanfilippo Syndrome B, a rare disease which, when left untreated, results in liver, heart and brain failure. The boy was given healthy stem cells from the blood of a baby girl in the hopes that once inside the boy’s body, the healthy stem cells would keep his vital organs from failing. Even though the boy eventually died from infection (one of the common risks associated with transplants), doctors were able to show for the first time that some of the girl’s healthy cells had settled in the boy’s heart and transformed themselves into fully functional heart cells.

Notably, blood stem cells have been used for years to treat children with liver, brain and heart problems. It was suspected that donor stem cells were transforming themselves into the needed cell types, but until this study, this phenomenon had never been proven.

The study was conducted by a team or researchers at the Duke Comprehensive Cancer Center. Kirsten Crapnell, Ph.D will present the team's findings at the International Association of Bone Marrow Transplantation Research meeting Feb. 12-17 in Orlando, Florida.
Good point...Prop 2 is strictly for embryos(14 days)...not fetuses though.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:43 PM   #42
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Adult stem cell research has paid off - embryonic stem research has not. Fact.

Emotional appeals based on trotting out people who have suffered tragedies is just in poor taste. Likewise appeals from Hollywood types (like Michael J. Fox, who never graduated high school, but testified on stem cell research before Congress) are BS.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 05:25 PM   #43
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It's not like they are killing people to do this. NO lives are lost as a result of stem cell research. I would think that religious people would be FOR this because it seems more ethical to at least TRY to gain something from these being rather than discard them without ever having a chance to do anything for the world.
That depends upon your definition of when does life begin.

Nobody was willing to take the bait when I asked the question if anyone believes we'll be able to carry a full term pregnancy outside of the womb via petri dishes and incubators, and/or if/when that might happen.

In my generation, the viability of premature babies has been pushed startlingly earlier and earlier - albeit with the assistance of heroic high tech medical help.

Not to start a thread hijack, but so too is the question of: "When does life technically end?" tend to get danced around - also due to the extraordinary leaps in medicine/science.

Back to the topic at hand however. Just because the proposal suggests that this would be limited to discarded ex-fertility clinic embryo's (that the proponents prefer to call a "collection of cells") and such doesn't mean that a door/loophole won't be opened...

Many, many folks bitch, complain, and lament that our legal system is too convoluted, too easily manipulated by corporate attorneys; and yet here we are attempting to approve legislation that will allow certain measures without first attempting to definitively answer certain ethical questions.
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 05:14 AM   #44
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I still don't see why it is unethical to extract cells from a embryo that is going to be discarded anyway. The fact is that there have been no cures made from embryonic stem cells, but there is a very good chance that these cells could open the door for some huge medical advances....if the correct laws and funding are in place.
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 06:20 AM   #45
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I have no problems with stem cell research.
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 06:21 AM   #46
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I still don't see why it is unethical to extract cells from a embryo that is going to be discarded anyway. The fact is that there have been no cures made from embryonic stem cells, but there is a very good chance that these cells could open the door for some huge medical advances....if the correct laws and funding are in place.
the ethical question is when does life begin? I've already given the example that in my lifetime the viability of a fetus has been pushed back literally months. how far away are we from literally being able to have full term pregnancies outside of the womb?

I would submit that the possibility is closer than we are ready to admit. Should we reach that point, there's a very sudden, and real ethical question that will force the issue of when does life begin, regardless of your religious or philosophical viewpoints...
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 06:43 AM   #47
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The question of when does life begin is a very good one. Howeve, perhaps the question should be what is "life".
As we (humans) explore other planets, such as mars, we look for life, or signs of life. It is my understanding that life is anything that is self sustaining, as it refers to single cell Organism.
I have not dug deeply into the science behind looking for life onother planets but I would think the same criteria would be applied on this planet as well.
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 06:52 AM   #48
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The question of when does life begin is a very good one. Howeve, perhaps the question should be what is "life".
As we (humans) explore other planets, such as mars, we look for life, or signs of life. It is my understanding that life is anything that is self sustaining, as it refers to single cell Organism.
I have not dug deeply into the science behind looking for life onother planets but I would think the same criteria would be applied on this planet as well.
If you believe life to be something that is self sustaining. Than an embryo is just that it grows and it changes, so life exists at that point. It is genetically separate from its parents/donors yet it shares many of the same genetic qualites. Whether you feel an embryo deserves the title of human or not it is still a life form with great potential, a potential Dr., Mother, Father, ect.
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 07:20 AM   #49
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The question of when does life begin is a very good one. Howeve, perhaps the question should be what is "life".
As we (humans) explore other planets, such as mars, we look for life, or signs of life. It is my understanding that life is anything that is self sustaining, as it refers to single cell Organism.
I have not dug deeply into the science behind looking for life onother planets but I would think the same criteria would be applied on this planet as well.
as bert mentioned, the question of when does life begin was just the intro to a deeper discussion on when do we apply humanistic status to an embryo/fetus/baby. Thankfully, the status of living does not in and of itself confer automatic human rights, contrary to what the lunatics at PETA would propose...
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 07:59 AM   #50
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You're not getting my point. These embryos are going to be discarded regardless of stem cell research. It would be like using parts of a dog that got hit by a car for scientific research. Killing a dog for research may be seen as unethical to some, but since the dog is already dead, then where is the controversy? I think that discarding embryos is a disgusting act and not ethical, but it happens, and it will continue to happen. Why throw them away when they could hold answers to do a great deal of good for mankind?
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 08:25 AM   #51
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You're not getting my point. These embryos are going to be discarded regardless of stem cell research. It would be like using parts of a dog that got hit by a car for scientific research. Killing a dog for research may be seen as unethical to some, but since the dog is already dead, then where is the controversy? I think that discarding embryos is a disgusting act and not ethical, but it happens, and it will continue to happen. Why throw them away when they could hold answers to do a great deal of good for mankind?
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 08:32 AM   #52
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You're not getting my point. These embryos are going to be discarded regardless of stem cell research. It would be like using parts of a dog that got hit by a car for scientific research. Killing a dog for research may be seen as unethical to some, but since the dog is already dead, then where is the controversy? I think that discarding embryos is a disgusting act and not ethical, but it happens, and it will continue to happen. Why throw them away when they could hold answers to do a great deal of good for mankind?
I am getting your point. you're not getting mine. if you open up the doors, there are potentials for abuse that you're not seeing. one was copied+pasted from an article earlier in the thread regarding production egg harvesting...

to follow your analogy, since dead people are ultimately "discarded" via burial or cremation, why not allow them to be used for food - surely there is some nutritional value left in human corpses that could be used for the common good... after all there are people starving on this planet...

yes, the disposal of human embryo's is distasteful, disgusting, even reprehensible depending on your religious, or philosophical outlook. to me, experimenting on them only adds insult to injury.

the entire field of genetic experimentation as it relates to humans has too little ethical oversight in my opinion...
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 08:37 AM   #53
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I am getting your point. you're not getting mine. if you open up the doors, there are potentials for abuse that you're not seeing. one was copied+pasted from an article earlier in the thread regarding production egg harvesting...

to follow your analogy, since dead people are ultimately "discarded" via burial or cremation, why not allow them to be used for food - surely there is some nutritional value left in human corpses that could be used for the common good... after all there are people starving on this planet...

yes, the disposal of human embryo's is distasteful, disgusting, even reprehensible depending on your religious, or philosophical outlook. to me, experimenting on them only adds insult to injury.

the entire field of genetic experimentation as it relates to humans has too little ethical oversight in my opinion...
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 11:36 AM   #54
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I am getting your point. you're not getting mine. if you open up the doors, there are potentials for abuse that you're not seeing. one was copied+pasted from an article earlier in the thread regarding production egg harvesting...

"potentials for abuse"? When you drive your vehicle to work in the morning, you have the potential to drive over 100 mph but don't...even if you do, you run the risk of getting caught because it is against the law. If there is an abuse, I agree that there should be heavy consequences...

to follow your analogy, since dead people are ultimately "discarded" via burial or cremation, why not allow them to be used for food - surely there is some nutritional value left in human corpses that could be used for the common good... after all there are people starving on this planet...

Interesting...Dead bodies for food. It's happened before where there was a life and death situation (plane crash in the Andes for one). I would do it also. Human corpses are used to advance the common good...If you would put that sticker on the back of your license....

yes, the disposal of human embryo's is distasteful, disgusting, even reprehensible depending on your religious, or philosophical outlook. to me, experimenting on them only adds insult to injury.

I agree that it is terrible to discard embryos. Prop 2 will allow the embryos to have a use other than common trash.

the entire field of genetic experimentation as it relates to humans has too little ethical oversight in my opinion...
I think it needs to be watched too...
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 11:59 AM   #55
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you have the potential to drive over 100 mph but don't.

I plead the fifth.

as for linking up the potentials of abuse vs. the penalties. what penalty would be sufficient for one that abuses Prop 2?

surely the penalties for my excessive speeding are proportionate to the crime. I would submit to you, that all to often that penalties for reprehensible actions such as the white collar crime that led up to the elimination of countless pensions, and literally 1/3 of the stock market are not proportionate to the cumulative suffering caused.

so too, I wonder what would be a proportionate penalty for one that abuses embryonic research, and/or genetic engineering?

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Old October 22nd, 2008, 12:04 PM   #56
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So why use the handicapped girl to push Prop 2? All that does is make me want to vote No! Sorry, but no sympathy vote for me from the poor girl. Her parents should be put down and used for research for using their daughters' current state of life by keeping her on a breathing machine to satisfy their own greed of not losing a daughter. What kind of quality of life will that girl ever lead being a quadrapalegic on a breathing machine?

Sorry ... that commercial REALLY PISSES ME OFF!!!!
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 01:10 PM   #57
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I have no problems with stem cell research.
me neither, but it is the embryo part that I don't like, and the adult stem cells I do like.

I think they can also get stem cells out of umbilical cords now.
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 01:28 PM   #58
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me neither, but it is the embryo part that I don't like, and the adult stem cells I do like.

I think they can also get stem cells out of umbilical cords now. yes they can. My son's was donated instead of being thrown in the trash.
1. I think most people would be proud to say that their unused embryo was used to try to find cures for suffering people rather than thrown out.

2. We all know that the adult stem cells have proven to be more usefull. Standard army tank cannons have also been proven to be more usefull than electromagnetic rail guns. The rail guns have not had as much research done on them, but they are more complicated than a traditional gun and theoretically posses much more useful characteristics than a traditional gun. Embryonic stem cells may be the rail gun that biochemists and doctors have been searching for.
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 02:12 PM   #59
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I think most people would be proud to say that their unused embryo was used to try to find cures for suffering people rather than thrown out..
the small handful of people I know that went through fertility treatments don't talk so much about what, if any unused embryo's they have, how many were used or much about the entire process. they may mention that they used fertility drugs, but mostly they're just happy they have children.
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Old October 22nd, 2008, 02:22 PM   #60
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More on: Adult vs Embryonic Cells - sighting: religioustolerance.org

Adult stem cells:
"Stem cells can also be extracted from adult tissue, without harm to the subject. Unfortunately, they are difficult to harvest, are severely limited in quantity, and -- above all -- are limited in their flexibility. There is a consensus among researchers that adult stem cells can only produce a few of the 220 types of cells in the human body.
Adult cell research has a twenty year head start over embryonic stem cells."

Embryonic stem cells:
"An embryonic stem cell is a primitive type of cell that can be coaxed into developing into most of the 220 types of cells found in the human body (e.g. blood cells, heart cells, nerve cells, brain cells, etc). Some researchers regard them as offering the greatest potential for the alleviation of human suffering since the development of antibiotics."
..."Prohibited in the U.S. by the Dickey Amendment to the Labor, Health and Human Services, & Education Appropriations Act of 1996."
"On 2001-AUG-9, President George W. Bush decided to allow stem cell research in government labs, but restricted researchers to use only 72 existing lines of stem cells. By 2003-MAY, most of these lines had become useless. Only 22 remained in mid-2006, and many of them were of limited usefulness because of DNA damage."



This explains why there has very little advancement in embryonic research. There is potential here for huge advancements in medical technology. I hope we can give it a chance.
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