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Old October 21st, 2008, 03:51 PM   #21
RyeBread
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The religeous stand point comes from ones belief/understanding of when human life begins if you feel it begins at conception then 2 does go to far as you are dealing with a human life. Regardless of the benifits you are taking one life for another.
don't confuse religion with philosophy.

you can even ignore both, and point towards the hypocrisy in our codified laws as a reason to want to explore/solidify the grey areas... before pushing the boundaries further.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 03:59 PM   #22
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The religeous stand point comes from ones belief/understanding of when human life begins if you feel it begins at conception then 2 does go to far as you are dealing with a human life. Regardless of the benifits you are taking one life for another.
This about the opportunity to advance science. If a person has a religious dogma, that can get in the way. It is their right to not accept the treatment if it is available...

I'm not trying to inflame....I like a good debate.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:05 PM   #23
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This about the opportunity to advance science. If a person has a religious dogma, that can get in the way. It is their right to not accept the treatment if it is available...

I'm not trying to inflame....I like a good debate.
no it's not. it's about greed. the greedy are using the idea/heart strings of suffering and scientific advancement to disguise the greed and muddle the waters/confuse the matter.

:)
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:08 PM   #24
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Default maybe not our dime yet but soon, with no viable results

Stem research gets 14M boost from gov
By JORDAN LITE
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Tuesday, January 8th 2008, 4:00 AM

Gov. Spitzer awarded $14.5 million Monday to New York stem-cell researchers - the first outlay of money for the state's new $600 million initiative to study the promising cells.

Scientists believe stem cells could eventually treat diseases including Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and diabetes.

"Innovative stem-cell research has the potential to yield therapies that may prevent, treat and perhaps even cure many debilitating and life-threatening conditions," Spitzer said.

New York is among a handful of states, including California, New Jersey and Connecticut, that launched their own research projects after President Bush limited funding in 2001.

Critics oppose research that uses stem cells from embryos because it requires the embryos' destruction. In recent months, scientists have published studies showing that skin cells can be used to harvest stem cells, skirting the ethical controversy.

Among the 25 institutions receiving money are Albert Einstein College of Medicine, City College, Columbia University, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Institute for Cancer Research, Montefiore Medical Center, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York Medical College, NYU, SUNY Downstate Medical Center and Weill Cornell Medical College.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:11 PM   #25
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no it's not. it's about greed. the greedy are using the idea/heart strings of suffering and scientific advancement to disguise the greed and muddle the waters/confuse the matter.

:)
At this point, where does greed come into play? It will only come to fruition if we, the voting public, let it.

Here is the language in in Prop. 2: Again, I would rather not waste human embryos. Remember, they are being discarded, like sour milk...

Section 27. (1) Nothing in this section shall alter Michiganís current prohibition
on human cloning.
(2) To ensure that Michigan citizens have access to stem cell therapies and
cures, and to ensure that physicians and researchers can conduct the most
promising forms of medical research in this state, and that all such research is
conducted safely and ethically, any research permitted under federal law on human
embryos may be conducted in Michigan, subject to the requirements of federal law
and only the following additional limitations and requirements:
(a) No stem cells may be taken from a human embryo more than fourteen
days after cell division begins; provided, however, that time during
which an embryo is frozen does not count against this fourteen day
limit.
(b) The human embryos were created for the purpose of fertility treatment
and, with voluntary and informed consent, documented in writing, the
person seeking fertility treatment chose to donate the embryos for
research; and
(i) the embryos were in excess of the clinical need of the person
seeking the fertility treatment and would otherwise be discarded
unless they are used for research; or
(ii) the embryos were not suitable for implantation and would otherwise
be discarded unless they are used for research.
(c) No person may, for valuable consideration, purchase or sell human
embryos for stem cell research or stem cell therapies and cures.
(d) All stem cell research and all stem cell therapies and cures must be
conducted and provided in accordance with state and local laws of
general applicability, including but not limited to laws concerning
scientific and medical practices and patient safety and privacy, to the
extent that any such laws do not:
(i) prevent, restrict, obstruct, or discourage any stem cell research or
stem cell therapies and cures that are permitted by the provisions
of this section; or
(ii) create disincentives for any person to engage in or otherwise
associate with such research or therapies or cures.
(3) Any provision of this section held unconstitutional shall be severable from
the remaining portions of this section.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:13 PM   #26
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Default more info on why not 3rd paragraph

Pros and Cons of Stem Cell Research - Embryonic Cells
The pros and cons of stem cell research come to the surface when we examine the third source of stem cells - embryonic cells. Embryonic stem cells are extracted directly from an embryo before the embryo's cells begin to differentiate. At this stage the embryo is referred to as a "blastocyst." There are about 100 cells in a blastocyst, a very large percentage of which are stem cells, which can be kept alive indefinitely, grown in cultures, where the stem cells continue to double in number every 2-3 days. A replicating set of stem cells from a single blastocyst is called a "stem cell line" because the genetic material all comes from the same fertilized human egg that started it. President Bush authorized federal funding for research on the 15 stem cell lines available in August 2001. Other stem cell lines are also available for research but without the coveted assistance of federal funding.

So what is the controversy all about? Those who value human life from the point of conception, oppose embryonic stem cell research because the extraction of stem cells from this type of an embryo requires its destruction. In other words, it requires that a human life be killed. Some believe this to be the same as murder. Against this, embryonic research advocates argue that the tiny blastocyst has no human features. Further, new stem cell lines already exist due to the common practice of in vitro fertilization. Research advocates conclude that many fertilized human cells have already been banked, but are not being made available for research. Advocates of embryonic stem cell research claim new human lives will not be created for the sole purpose of experimentation.

Others argue against such research on medical grounds. Mice treated for Parkinson's with embryonic stem cells have died from brain tumors in as much as 20% of cases.1 Embryonic stem cells stored over time have been shown to create the type of chromosomal anomalies that create cancer cells.2 Looking at it from a more pragmatic standpoint, funds devoted to embryonic stem cell research are funds being taken away from the other two more promising and less controversial types of stem cell research mentioned above
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:14 PM   #27
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Stem research gets 14M boost from gov
By JORDAN LITE
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Tuesday, January 8th 2008, 4:00 AM

Gov. Spitzer awarded $14.5 million Monday to New York stem-cell researchers - the first outlay of money for the state's new $600 million initiative to study the promising cells.

Scientists believe stem cells could eventually treat diseases including Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and diabetes.

"Innovative stem-cell research has the potential to yield therapies that may prevent, treat and perhaps even cure many debilitating and life-threatening conditions," Spitzer said.

New York is among a handful of states, including California, New Jersey and Connecticut, that launched their own research projects after President Bush limited funding in 2001.

Critics oppose research that uses stem cells from embryos because it requires the embryos' destruction. In recent months, scientists have published studies showing that skin cells can be used to harvest stem cells, skirting the ethical controversy.

Among the 25 institutions receiving money are Albert Einstein College of Medicine, City College, Columbia University, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Institute for Cancer Research, Montefiore Medical Center, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York Medical College, NYU, SUNY Downstate Medical Center and Weill Cornell Medical College.
Let's worry about public funding when it comes to us in a proposal. Prop 2 allows for the research to happen.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:16 PM   #28
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At this point, where does greed come into play? It will only come to fruition if we, the voting public, let it.

*snip*
are you naive enough to believe that the voting public isn't bought and sold on a daily basis by our legislature?

from lobbyists, to advertising dollars this is about spending a lot of money, in order to gamble that it will be legalized, and in turn become part of a big pork barrel.

copied from the above article:
"Among the 25 institutions receiving money are Albert Einstein College of Medicine, City College, Columbia University, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Institute for Cancer Research, Montefiore Medical Center, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York Medical College, NYU, SUNY Downstate Medical Center and Weill Cornell Medical College."

While higher educational institutions are non-profit organizations (on paper, and in the eyes of the law/IRS) it would be also incredibly naive to suggest that greed does not enter into their administrative decisions...
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:18 PM   #29
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So it's better to throw embryos away than to learn from them? Is this the bottom line? There is huge potential for these cells because they have regenative abilities, unlike the stem cells in adults. This is why the tip of your finger won't grow back if you cut it off, but a young child's will.

Last edited by clint357; October 21st, 2008 at 04:24 PM.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:20 PM   #30
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So it's better to throw embryos away than to learn from them? Is this the bottom line? There is huge potential for these cells because they have regenative abilities, unlike the stem cells in adults.
In my opinion, until certain ethical questions have been agreed upon, yes.

Cancer has certain regenerative and explosive growth abilities as well...
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:22 PM   #31
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are you naive enough to believe that the voting public isn't bought and sold on a daily basis by our legislature?

from lobbyists, to advertising dollars this is about spending a lot of money, in order to gamble that it will be legalized, and in turn become part of a big pork barrel.

copied from the above article:
"Among the 25 institutions receiving money are Albert Einstein College of Medicine, City College, Columbia University, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Institute for Cancer Research, Montefiore Medical Center, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York Medical College, NYU, SUNY Downstate Medical Center and Weill Cornell Medical College."

While higher educational institutions are non-profit organizations (on paper, and in the eyes of the law/IRS) it would be also incredibly naive to suggest that greed does not enter into their administrative decisions...
Naive? Where does naivety and having the idealism that I ,we, can still make a difference meet? I think I can make a difference. I would also like a prospect of being cured one day.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:23 PM   #32
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there are lots of places that are currently researching this the big issue is who is going to pay for it (i am against it because of the death of a baby) it is a huge issue, ask your self who is going to profit from government funding research houses mostly, i hate the way these issues cause arguments but its somthing we as humans need to stand up for just like abortion (not starting another thread) people want to jump on the band wagon because they hear an advertisement that makes them feel rotten if they dont support the cause but if we are truthful and gather some info and actually read it with an open mind the decision gets easier, every article i read today uses words like "could" "might" "possible" "potentially" then you read a little farther and you read how the basic procedure does not even work, if its so promising why dont they fix their process first then bring some results that show an increase in sucess. i ask why not again??? goes back to the dead end...
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:29 PM   #33
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THIS is another reason why we need to do stem cell research in the greatest country in the world, the USA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woo-Suk_Hwang

Others will do it and do it improperly. We have the greatest scientific community on the planet in the United States. Lets do it right, here at home, and bring cures and employment to many people.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:30 PM   #34
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Naive? Where does naivety and having the idealism that I ,we, can still make a difference meet? I think I can make a difference. I would also like a prospect of being cured one day.
the idealism of my youth has been crushed and turned into the cynicism of reality. sorry.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:47 PM   #35
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I am not religious so my opinion on the subject is purely on the costs/benefits.

I think it should be legalized BUT the government should have nothing to do with it. Government will only mud the waters. If there is anything to it private companies will see that and explore it further. NO need for our tax dollars to fund any of this.

I think there should be set rules on where the embryos come from. Paying someone to get pregnant then taking the embryo is sick and twisted - religion aside.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:50 PM   #36
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I am not religious so my opinion on the subject is purely on the costs/benefits.

I think it should be legalized BUT the government should have nothing to do with it. Government will only mud the waters. If there is anything to it private companies will see that and explore it further. NO need for our tax dollars to fund any of this.

I think there should be set rules on where the embryos come from. Paying someone to get pregnant then taking the embryo is sick and twisted - religion aside.
I agree with this statement except that the National Institutes of Health (NIH) provide most grant funds within the US. It is funded by taxpayer dollars and supports a range of interests from cancer to obesity to diabetes. It may be hard to rule that they can spend their money on the above research interests but not stem cells
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:55 PM   #37
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In my opinion, until certain ethical questions have been agreed upon, yes.

Cancer has certain regenerative and explosive growth abilities as well...
It's not like they are killing people to do this. NO lives are lost as a result of stem cell research. I would think that religious people would be FOR this because it seems more ethical to at least TRY to gain something from these being rather than discard them without ever having a chance to do anything for the world.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 05:28 PM   #38
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the idealism of my youth has been crushed and turned into the cynicism of reality. sorry.
lol...I understand that. We can't give up!
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Old October 21st, 2008, 05:29 PM   #39
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I think that the reason that adult stem cells have proven to be successful is because they are obviously more readilly available for research and they are understood much better. The stem cells out of a fetus are much more complex, meaning that more time is needed to study them and find uses, and they also have much more potential. I did find this though.

Stem cells proven to treat heart damage


For the first time ever, scientists were able to show that stem cells from a healthy donor baby’s blood can transform into the specialized cell type that a patient needs. The patient was a four-year old boy with Sanfilippo Syndrome B, a rare disease which, when left untreated, results in liver, heart and brain failure. The boy was given healthy stem cells from the blood of a baby girl in the hopes that once inside the boy’s body, the healthy stem cells would keep his vital organs from failing. Even though the boy eventually died from infection (one of the common risks associated with transplants), doctors were able to show for the first time that some of the girl’s healthy cells had settled in the boy’s heart and transformed themselves into fully functional heart cells.

Notably, blood stem cells have been used for years to treat children with liver, brain and heart problems. It was suspected that donor stem cells were transforming themselves into the needed cell types, but until this study, this phenomenon had never been proven.

The study was conducted by a team or researchers at the Duke Comprehensive Cancer Center. Kirsten Crapnell, Ph.D will present the team's findings at the International Association of Bone Marrow Transplantation Research meeting Feb. 12-17 in Orlando, Florida.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 05:32 PM   #40
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Stick to the facts? Where does it say "your dime" will be used. As I see it, it will be privately funded. There is nothing in Prop. 2 related to taxes. Embryonic research needs a chance.
You are right about the tax issue, it appears that the advertisements were misleading. But future tax payments are uncertain.

The tax issue is not my only problem with testing embryos, the fact that they would experiment and mix DNA with animals is BEYOND creepy.
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