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Old October 2nd, 2008, 06:09 PM   #81
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he said we were spinning our tires duh it was a little wet and muddy after 6" of rain
he gave us the lowest cause we were cooperative and I really didn't realize it was not legal.
YOU WERE LEGAL


he didn't cut you any breaks, he gave you guys tickets illegally.
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Old October 2nd, 2008, 06:48 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardiedrg
he said we were spinning our tires duh it was a little wet and muddy after 6" of rainhe gave us the lowest cause we were cooperative and I really didn't realize it was not legal.

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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
YOU WERE LEGAL


he didn't cut you any breaks, he gave you guys tickets illegally.
Sounds like he admitted to "causing an erosive condition" to me.

That said, those roads look like county roads to me.
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Old October 2nd, 2008, 06:57 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Beardiedrg View Post
if you would of fought in earlier years as the rest who seems to critize us then this BS laws wouldn't of been wrote, go get one yourself and then critique us on your outcome. The organizations here are good to talk about but from what I see it's all talk. If it's so mighty then organize and do something.
Well you're the perfect example of why we can not get any precedences set.
If people continue to just pay the tickets without contesting the citation we'll continue to be the lesser player when it comes to getting the DNR to change their possible illegal and incorrect interpretation of the law.
Relative to fighting the tickets....OUR MEMBERS HAVE!!!!!!! Each situation is always a bit different. The two most recent contested tickets were either won by the defendant or the DNR nullified the tickets.
You gentlemen have done the recreational 4wheel drive community a grave disservice by not at least appearing before the Magistrate. That action cost's you NOTHING.
As far as the State Association being all talk.....your newbie s_i_t is showing!
Prepare yourself for a wrath of criticism from your fellow 4 wheelers.
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Old October 2nd, 2008, 07:04 PM   #84
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To answer some Q that have bean PM to me the tiket was writen on 9/21/08 by the DNR, I have no idea how much time I have before I have to make a dis. You guys putt up a good fight with all your info I thanck you for that. Im dont going to tell the story fear that it could be used againts me. But I will say this The DNR was hideing in the woods watching us I dont know for how loung or exactly what he seen, when he jumped out of the woods he had a cam. in his hand and before we could go he took more pics of jeeps. tread lightly is not a term id us.
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Old October 2nd, 2008, 07:09 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Beardiedrg View Post
he said we were spinning our tires duh it was a little wet and muddy after 6" of rain
he gave us the lowest cause we were cooperative and I really didn't realize it was not legal.
I'm reasonably confident that an Attorney could make the argument that your tires have to be spinning to move your vehicle. That's point 1.
Secondly, if you were in 4WD and traveling from one end of the mud hole to the other without flailing in 2WD or going back and forth, it could also be argued that you were just trying to make sure you made it out to the other end.
Lastly, there are documents that were issued by the DNR that clearly state that 'temporary conditions' such as a flooded road or deep snow conditions that require the use of 4WD are NOT AN ILLEGAL ACTIVITY.
And last but not least, 'Erosive manner' would have to result in damage being done to the surrounding terrain. If the same dirt is in the same spot after the water dries up.......where's the erosion?
All points that an Attouney could argue........................but then that's not going to happen, is it?
Hope you don't plan on going into a career that scrutinizes your criminal record, because you sir now ARE A CRIMINAL with record!
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Old October 2nd, 2008, 07:14 PM   #86
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When I was in high school some class mates got a reckless driving and erosive condition on a gravel rd whan frost laws were out. They fought the tickets and got it doun to a careless sill had to pay the erosive condition and court cost.
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Old October 2nd, 2008, 07:29 PM   #87
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Back and forth
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Old October 2nd, 2008, 07:37 PM   #88
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The more I read the more I get pissed at you guys for not fighting this!

Your MCL on the citation was 324.81133e
That clearly states operation in a state game area, or recreation area.
It also states that the area must be clearly marked.
An 'erosive' manner in that section clearly states that injury or damage or to destroy trees or growing crops.
It also states that the violation must be on state owned lands or land under control by the state. If this was County property the citation doesn't meet with the threshold of criteria.

If you were on private property the correct MCL would have been 324.81133i
This tells me that you were potentially NOT on private property.

The big lurking question right now I have is, were you flailing in the mud puddle or did you drive across it in a civil manner?
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Old October 2nd, 2008, 07:50 PM   #89
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well we were out having fun
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Old October 2nd, 2008, 07:54 PM   #90
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Would it matter

Quote:
violation # 324.81133e

(e) In a state game area or state park or recreation area, except on roads, trails, or areas designated for this purpose; on state owned lands under the control of the department other than game areas, state parks, or recreational areas where the operation would be in violation of rules promulgated by the department; in a forest nursery or planting area; on public lands posted or reasonably identifiable as an area of forest reproduction, and when growing stock may be damaged; in a dedicated natural area of the department; or in any area in such a manner as to create an erosive condition, or to injure, damage, or destroy trees or growing crops. However, the department may permit an owner and guests of the owner to use an ORV within the boundaries of a state forest in order to access the owner's property.
They were on a road or trail , so am I reading this right because they were on a road or trail this section would not apply to them.

Also wouldn't the video of there wheeling be available to them to see or have a copy??????
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Old October 2nd, 2008, 09:26 PM   #91
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Tread Lightly! is not a term id use.
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Originally Posted by stumpjumper View Post
Back and forth
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well we were out having fun
I think I see why it isn't being contested.
A hard lesson to learn.
That's why that kind of 'playing' needs to be kept to the parks.

I wish the circumstances had been a little different.

At least next time you're out, you'll be a little better informed than the last time.


Let's see if we're all on the same page now . . .

IMHO:
The location the citation was written was legal, the activity taking place at that location was not.
In other words . . .
The FOREST ROAD that connects the two seasonal portions of Magruder is legal to drive, but it's not legal to splash back and forth through the deepest hole on the easement. That is considered erosive.
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Old October 2nd, 2008, 09:31 PM   #92
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.............. go get one yourself and then critique us on your outcome. The organizations here are good to talk about but from what I see it's all talk.......
A year or two after the ORV law change (to it's current lack of measurable standards) about eight of us got these same bogus tickets up by Turtle Ponds, 11 Mile/Baker Road area. They were all fought and won. I believe two or three of the tickets were handled by GLFWDA through Sundowners or Mudchuggers.

Now that the right to critique has been earned........

Don't nay-say others based on your own lack of ambition or fortitude when it comes to standing up to erroneous prosecution. You were sold a bad bill of goods and thanked the system for it. You may not know it, but several of the people here that told you to fight the bogus ticket are cops and lawyers (defense and prosecutors.) What rights do you want to give up next?
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Old October 2nd, 2008, 09:32 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic View Post
I think I see why it isn't being contested.
A hard lesson to learn.
That's why that kind of 'playing' needs to be kept to the parks.

I wish the circumstances had been a little different.

At least next time you're out, you'll be a little better informed than the last time.


Let's see if we're all on the same page now . . .

IMHO:
The location the citation was written was legal, the activity taking place at that location was not.
In other words . . .
The FOREST ROAD that connects the two seasonal portions of Magruder is legal to drive, but it's not legal to splash back and forth through the deepest hole on the easement. That is considered erosive.
Exactly what I meant in my earlier post when I said I'd like to hear what the conservation officer had to say.

People always want to assume that the law enforcement officers are "overstepping their authority" or "abusing their badge" or a whole other host of ridiculous assumptions.

I am an off roader and have been for years. I have written MANY tickets to ORV riders and Jeep drivers for DNR violations. Those tickets were well deserved and were people who were HURTING OUR SPORT. But guess what? When they got home with their friends and family or talked to their 4x4 club members or got on an off road website all they could do was lie and make it look like THEY were the victims. Cops make mistakes. They are human. But if you listen to many people on this site they would have you believe that cops are out there trying to jam up innocent people and THAT just isn't true.

end rant.
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Old October 2nd, 2008, 10:02 PM   #94
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well we were out having fun

it sounds like you guys got what what coming... quit thinking about having an argument and pay your tuition.

next time keep it to the parks like TF said...
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Old October 2nd, 2008, 10:24 PM   #95
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dont cross the one nation under hombre squad dey gots da guns
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Old October 2nd, 2008, 10:43 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic View Post
I think I see why it isn't being contested.
A hard lesson to learn.
That's why that kind of 'playing' needs to be kept to the parks.
Unfortunately, all "playing" with SOS-plated vehicles needs to be confined to parks or private property. The risks to future access/regulation are simply too great to do anything else, IMHO.


Well, and this may better be presented as the subject of a different thread, in my opinion a big part of what serves as a "trigger" for this kind of enforcement (whether right or wrong in a particular situation) is a response to "playing around" characteristics of the activity, as opposed to simply traveling through an area and exploring using Tread Lightly principles. Splashing in mud puddles, driving vehicles that are clearly "recreational", noisy exhaust, stuff like that, kinda pegs one in the target demographic for enforcement.

Having had some experience on the periphery of the legislative and lobbying process, and after fifteen years of involvement with an organization involved the preservation of some unmolested wilderness in the metro-Detroit area, I've come away with a couple observations that apply to this sort of issue:

1. The squeaky wheel will get the grease, both in Lansing and at the local level.
2. Consistency produces results, whether complaining about an activity one wants regulated/banned or in fighting against the same, except success for our side will take 10x as much effort as will be required of the antis.
3. The people who are most vocally opposed to recreational use of natural areas by wheeled vehicles are both concerned about the health and integrity of the natural area, and grossly confused about the real impact of Tread Lightly-compliant use of off-road vehicles.
4. Much of what seems to excite OHV/ORV/ATV users are activities which are not Tread Lightly-compliant. Another reason to keep the "fun" and "exciting" stuff confined to appropriate venues.
5. There is a big class issue at play here that far too often gets overlooked. The big, noisy, rusty, home-brewed off-road truck is going to be a magnet for negative attention from LE on the trail and, more generally, in the eyes of much of the public. A highly capable vintage Range Rover or Land Cruiser, with a substantially intact body, quiet exhaust, and smaller tires, will be far more positively received. Like it or not, this is something that we need to be cognizant of at all times.
6. Most people in elected and appointed office, in my experience, hold a contemptuous attitude towards off-road vehicle usage in general and, for that matter, to most pastimes customarily associated with blue collar folks. Even if they show up at MIS or make a campaign stop at the local car show. Keep this in mind.
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 09:08 AM   #97
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Then you sir get the idiot of the year award.
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tread lightly is not a term id us.
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well we were out having fun

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic View Post
I think I see why it isn't being contested.
A hard lesson to learn.
That's why that kind of 'playing' needs to be kept to the parks.

I wish the circumstances had been a little different.

At least next time you're out, you'll be a little better informed than the last time.


Let's see if we're all on the same page now . . .

IMHO:
The location the citation was written was legal, the activity taking place at that location was not.
In other words . . .
The FOREST ROAD that connects the two seasonal portions of Magruder is legal to drive, but it's not legal to splash back and forth through the deepest hole on the easement. That is considered erosive.
I stand by my original comment, however, it is now for a different reason.
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 12:57 PM   #98
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The FOREST ROAD that connects the two seasonal portions of Magruder is legal to drive,
How did we make that leap? Was I sleeping? I don't think we ever determined who the ownership resided with. It's not a Forest Road unless the Plat Map says 'State of Michigan'. Does it?
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Old October 3rd, 2008, 08:47 PM   #99
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You should have fought it, especially with the knowledged learned just from here!!!
But then you didn't tell us the truth did you?
So you went to war for this country to protect our rights, then you roll over? Something doesn't jive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old October 6th, 2008, 04:43 PM   #100
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And if you knew Les you would know he's far from a "dickhead".
You know Hombre your right. I was being a bit defensive about the topic at hand. I have been thinking for a few days about this and yes I guess Les has been handed a bill of goods by the USFS and he has/had to make the choices where he sees fit. I guess I am just greedy from the stand point of loosing more and more access due to the tree hugger mentality.

if I had the ability to change the way its done I would just from an access stand point.
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