citation what do u thinck - Page 3 - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > 4x4 Land Use > Rules, Regulations, Trail, and ORV Park Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

greatlakes4x4.com is the premier Great Lakes 4x4 Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 29th, 2008, 08:18 AM   #41
Trail_Fanatic
Member since 1994
 
Trail_Fanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-25-06
Location: Muskegon and Oceana Counties
Posts: 3,174
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default Thanks for the heads up Signman.

Sorry I didn't see this sooner.
I've been through the ringer at work lately.
We went from being worried about closing the doors and going out of business to absolutely swamped and working 14 hour days to try to catch up.

I just hung up the phone with the Midland CRC.
They do NOT claim the middle 1.8 mile stretch of Magruder.
They Certify 1.1 miles north of M-20 and 1.1 miles south of Nelson Rd.
that leaves a 1.8 mile gap that is unclaimed by the Midland CRC.


Sorry but you're on your own.



It is our responsibility as drivers to know who's land we are driving upon when we recreate. This is just one of many things that can go wrong when we don't pay attention to the maps and just drive the "open" two tracks. Just because it's "open" on the ground does NOT mean it's legally "open" to public travel and use.


A case in the UP was found in favor of a land owner who had a couple of dirt bikers on his land.
The dirt bikers now have to pay $26,000 EACH to restore the land to its former condition.

BE CAREFUL where you drive out there!
We don't want this to happen to anyone in our sport.

Knowing that it is a Misdemeanor, I'd try to see if I could get it reduced to a lesser charge too.
Was the citation written less than 1.1 miles from either of the cross roads mentioned?
That might be the only technicality you could get off on.

Last edited by Trail_Fanatic; September 29th, 2008 at 08:23 AM.
Trail_Fanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old September 29th, 2008, 10:53 AM   #42
CreativeFab
used to be Ironman
 
CreativeFab's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12-01-05
Location: midland
Posts: 3,214
iTrader: (35)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic View Post
Sorry I didn't see this sooner.
I've been through the ringer at work lately.
We went from being worried about closing the doors and going out of business to absolutely swamped and working 14 hour days to try to catch up.

I just hung up the phone with the Midland CRC.
They do NOT claim the middle 1.8 mile stretch of Magruder.
They Certify 1.1 miles north of M-20 and 1.1 miles south of Nelson Rd.
that leaves a 1.8 mile gap that is unclaimed by the Midland CRC.


Sorry but you're on your own.



It is our responsibility as drivers to know who's land we are driving upon when we recreate. This is just one of many things that can go wrong when we don't pay attention to the maps and just drive the "open" two tracks. Just because it's "open" on the ground does NOT mean it's legally "open" to public travel and use.


A case in the UP was found in favor of a land owner who had a couple of dirt bikers on his land.
The dirt bikers now have to pay $26,000 EACH to restore the land to its former condition.

BE CAREFUL where you drive out there!
We don't want this to happen to anyone in our sport.

Knowing that it is a Misdemeanor, I'd try to see if I could get it reduced to a lesser charge too.
Was the citation written less than 1.1 miles from either of the cross roads mentioned?
That might be the only technicality you could get off on.
Pat, is the "middle" stretch private or considered State owned and a forest road? Magruder road travels through mostly state land from M20 to Nelson road so I do not see why this could not be won in court. Unless somewhere it is considered private and therefore a tresspass citation should be levied. What am I missing?

I just got off the phone with the MCRC and answered my own question, the middle section is privately owned. With that said, was the ticket for trespass? Or was the infraction considered to have taken place on the MCRC owned section of road?

Last edited by CreativeFab; September 29th, 2008 at 11:00 AM.
CreativeFab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2008, 11:39 AM   #43
kb8ymf
Not as old as Whiterhino
 
kb8ymf's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-01-06
Location: Dryden,Mi.
Posts: 1,112
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic View Post
Sorry I didn't see this sooner.
I've been through the ringer at work lately.
We went from being worried about closing the doors and going out of business to absolutely swamped and working 14 hour days to try to catch up.

I just hung up the phone with the Midland CRC.
They do NOT claim the middle 1.8 mile stretch of Magruder.
They Certify 1.1 miles north of M-20 and 1.1 miles south of Nelson Rd.
that leaves a 1.8 mile gap that is unclaimed by the Midland CRC.
Was it formally abandoned?
Does an easement still exist?
Do the alleged property owners pay property tax on said piece?
Has it technically reverted back to private ownership?
If 'seasonal road' signs exist at the beginning of the road, one might argue that the MCRC 'should', via signage, inform users that the maintenance. and/or county ownership of the road ceases at a certain point. There was afterall, signs indicating Seasonal Road at the beginning, right? Why not say maintenance or seasonal road for X.X miles
While we ARE required to know where we are at at all times. Passing the 'what any reasonable indivuidual would understand' criteria has provided some relief in some arguments out west.
Having signs, potentially at either end indicating 'Seasonal Road', with a private section in the middle literally wreaks of entrapment.
If you were indeed 'tresspassing', I wonder why that wasn't written as such? Is Tresspass a Misdemeanor? or C.I.?
If your vehicle was licensed a P.A. 300 vehicle you could ask the ticket to be changed to that over a Misdemeanor ORV violation.
It's going to take some legal assistance but I would investigate all the facts before I just rolled over and payed the ticket.
jim-kb8ymf
kb8ymf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2008, 01:21 PM   #44
CreativeFab
used to be Ironman
 
CreativeFab's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12-01-05
Location: midland
Posts: 3,214
iTrader: (35)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Jim (kb8ymf) brings up a valid point in which I might, myself, investagate with a quick run out to Nelson road at the north end and Magruder the south and take a couple of pics of the seasonal road signs at each. I have run this road in the past and have heard many a story over the years living here in Midland county as to tickets being written out there. Never have I heard that the middle section was private or even that private exsisited out there. I will be checking my plat book when i get it back from it being lent out.

It would be nice to once and for all put an end to the questionability of this particular road, especially since it does involve a large chunk of state owned land used for hunting. Most of the stories I have heard centered around this particular sport and those using Magruder road to access there hunting spots. Park your Z71 on the other side of the first wet spot and bam, you had a ticket on your windshield when you returned to your truck after long days hunt. I'ts all hear say I know, but how many times can you hear these stories before you have to say some of them hold merit.

Sure wish the original poster would make it back here to answer some pertinent questions.
CreativeFab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2008, 03:18 PM   #45
kb8ymf
Not as old as Whiterhino
 
kb8ymf's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-01-06
Location: Dryden,Mi.
Posts: 1,112
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardiedrg View Post
He told us we could use a side road which goes through a marsh swamp for sure and it looks really bad and I've turned around.

Can you be more specific on this?
j-kb8ymf
kb8ymf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2008, 04:45 PM   #46
Bradv
B.K.O.R.C. - Director
 
Bradv's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-11-07
Location: .
Posts: 229
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

How far past the side road that goes to the marsh were you???

My GPS map source shows that road ( going to the east)at .5 miles off of M20

GPS map also shows a road going west at 1.0 miles

And a steam at .6 miles

my GPS map shows Magruder going all the way through
Bradv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2008, 05:12 PM   #47
stumpjumper
its a jeep thing im broke
 
stumpjumper's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-21-07
Location: Weidman MI
Posts: 137
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

The ticket is for creating an errosive condition or to injure, damage, or destroy trees or growing crops. However, the department may permit an owner and guests of the owner to use an ORV within the boundaries of a state forest in order to access the owner's property. If midland does not claim this as a road i realy had no reason of being back there I dont know any one who owns any property back there. Regardless if it is a road or not the ticket is not for tresspassing its for creating an errosive condtion. I dont thinck i can win this because of the errosive condtion, The officer said that this would be the less painfall of the charges he could bring on us. thancks for the advice i just dount thinck I can win.
stumpjumper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2008, 05:17 PM   #48
CheapThrillB2
FAWK YEAH!!
 
CheapThrillB2's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-06-06
Location: Middleville, MI
Posts: 31,299
iTrader: (61)
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Default

don't think or can't are two different things, fight it
CheapThrillB2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2008, 05:21 PM   #49
clarkstoncracker
lol
 
clarkstoncracker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-03-05
Location: OC - MI
Posts: 42,616
iTrader: (40)
Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to clarkstoncracker
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stumpjumper View Post
The officer said that this would be the less painfall of the charges he could bring on us. thancks for the advice i just dount thinck I can win.
I'm sure somebody here, or multiple people will help you fight this. If you weren't doing anything erosive, then you should fight this 100% of the way.
__________________
clarkstoncracker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2008, 05:25 PM   #50
whiterhino
I'm not old, honest...
 
whiterhino's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-07-06
Location: Davisburg MI
Posts: 21,758
iTrader: (21)
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Default

Will you fight this if we help you?
whiterhino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2008, 05:27 PM   #51
Bradv
B.K.O.R.C. - Director
 
Bradv's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-11-07
Location: .
Posts: 229
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Here is a link to everyone on Magruder rd north of M20 to Nelsen rd
https://is.bsasoftware.com/bsa.is/As...pid=0&unit=314

The Parcel Number work of you use the link

Property and Land Search Results
48 total record(s) were found in your search.


Search Criteria: [ Click here to refine search ]

Search for records where Street Name begins with "Magruder" AND Street Number From is greater than or equal to "0" AND Street Number To is less than or equal to "2000" AND Street Direction is equal to "N".





Search Results From 1 - 48 of 48 Page 1 of 1

Parcel Number Owner Name Property Address á
020-013-300-000-00
SALUSKY, CHARLES F ET UX N MAGRUDER RD
020-014-100-130-00
ARTHUR, RICHARD L ET UX N MAGRUDER RD
020-014-400-098-00
GRISWOLD, ANDY LAMAR N MAGRUDER RD
020-023-100-001-00
EARL, RONALD R ET UX N MAGRUDER RD
020-023-100-010-00
EARL, RONALD R ET UX N MAGRUDER RD
020-023-100-475-00
MCLAUGHLIN, VICTORIA M N MAGRUDER RD
020-024-200-015-00
MCLAUGHLIN, ROBERT L ET UX N MAGRUDER RD
020-026-100-025-00
WEGENER, GORDON H ET UX N MAGRUDER RD
020-035-100-000-00
BOWES, ROBERT J *TRUST* N MAGRUDER RD
020-035-100-050-00
STATE OF MICHIGAN DNR N MAGRUDER RD
020-035-100-100-00
NEWMAN, MARION J *TRUST* N MAGRUDER RD
020-036-200-050-00
CLARK, RALPH O JR N MAGRUDER RD
030-011-100-000-00
STATE OF MICHIGAN DNR N MAGRUDER RD
030-011-100-170-00
D N R N MAGRUDER RD
030-011-100-400-00
NEWCOMER, CARL JR ET UX N MAGRUDER RD
030-012-100-170-00
D N R N MAGRUDER RD
160-001-200-090-00
LEE, MICHAEL K N MAGRUDER RD
160-001-200-110-00
SIAN, ERNEST J N MAGRUDER RD
160-001-200-155-00
SWITZER, DONALD R N MAGRUDER RD
160-001-200-160-00
HUCKINS, HENRY L N MAGRUDER RD
160-002-100-150-00
IVES, DAVID E & H MONTGOMERY N MAGRUDER RD
160-011-400-096-00
MIDLAND COUNTY HABITAT FOR HUMANITY N MAGRUDER RD
160-011-400-097-00
MIDLAND COUNTY HABITAT FOR HUMANITY N MAGRUDER RD
160-011-400-098-00
MIDLAND COUNTY HABITAT FOR HUMANITY N MAGRUDER RD
160-011-400-099-00
MIDLAND COUNTY HABITAT FOR HUMANITY N MAGRUDER RD
160-011-400-200-00
BASTUK, REBECCA S *TRUST* N MAGRUDER RD
160-012-200-154-00
LONGSTRETH, DONALD ET UX N MAGRUDER RD
160-012-200-251-00
DUDLEY, JACK & MERRILL L N MAGRUDER RD
160-012-300-001-00
HEBNER, PHYLLIS ET AL N MAGRUDER RD
160-013-200-150-00
AULTMAN, PAUL N MAGRUDER RD
160-013-300-200-00
MILLER, JAMES R ET UX N MAGRUDER RD
160-014-100-045-00
BILLS, ALAN J ET UX N MAGRUDER RD
160-023-100-115-00
MIENK, DOUGLAS R & MIENK, DEBORAH N MAGRUDER RD
160-023-100-120-00
PETERS, JONATHAN M N MAGRUDER RD
160-023-100-275-00
MILLER, KEITH L & NANCY H&W N MAGRUDER RD
160-024-200-550-00
SWIECICKI, DENNIS J ET UX N MAGRUDER RD
160-024-300-010-00
DALESSANDRO, BRUNO ET UX N MAGRUDER RD
160-024-300-020-00
KNAKE, LAWRENCE L & JOYCE A N MAGRUDER RD
160-035-100-150-00
CLARKE, DONALD D ET UX N MAGRUDER RD
160-036-200-100-00
MESTER, CHARLES ET UX N MAGRUDER RD
030-012-300-100-00
ESTEP, ROY A ET UX 48 N MAGRUDER RD
030-011-400-497-00
JOHNSON, PHILLIP & RUTHANN H&W 95 N MAGRUDER RD
030-012-200-320-00
TYRRELL, KEVIN L & JULIE M H&W 284 N MAGRUDER RD
020-026-400-100-00
GLASGOW, JOHN H 1563 N MAGRUDER RD
020-026-400-000-00
GLASGOW, JOHN H 1641 N MAGRUDER RD
020-025-300-000-00
THORNELL, GEORGE C & VERNA *ESTATE* 1642 N MAGRUDER RD
020-026-100-050-00
KEENON, TIMOTHY R 1805 N MAGRUDER RD
020-025-200-050-00
CLARK, RALPH O ET UX TRUST 1812 N MAGRUDER RD

Last edited by Bradv; September 29th, 2008 at 05:32 PM. Reason: spelling there's an M in Magruder Not 2 G's
Bradv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2008, 08:16 PM   #52
kb8ymf
Not as old as Whiterhino
 
kb8ymf's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-01-06
Location: Dryden,Mi.
Posts: 1,112
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Default

Someone needs to get the Plat Map for that area to sort out the ownership lines. Anyone have that?
j-kb8ymf
kb8ymf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2008, 08:26 AM   #53
Trail_Fanatic
Member since 1994
 
Trail_Fanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-25-06
Location: Muskegon and Oceana Counties
Posts: 3,174
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stumpjumper View Post
The ticket is for creating an erosive condition or to injure, damage, or destroy trees or growing crops.

Hold on a minute . . .


THAT is an entirely different ticket than driving off trail (or off a "previously thought to be county" road, in this case, lol).

Were you running over trees or crops?
If not (and it sure doesn't sound like it), then you're innocent of the last part.

If the road is unobstructed and not signed in any way as closed, and the puddle was already there:

You didn't create the erosive condition, it was already there.

Unless it was on a hill where gravity can move additional soils, there probably wasn't ANY erosion anyway. Erosion is a permanent moving soils from one place to another - let a good rain fall again and I'll bet any soils you might have moved with your tires ends up right back in the hole you drove through - NOT a permanent movement of soil and therefore not erosive.

KB8YMF and Ironman are absolutely right - the public has the right to confidence when traveling. Neither the CRC nor the DNR has taken PROPER precautions (closed signage) to prevent the public from using the travel way.

I'll bet $$MONEY$$ the DNR can not produce an official document specifically closing this travel way. While "trails" are closed unless posted open in the Lower Pen, Forest Roads are open unless closed by the department.


Go back and take some pictures for the Judge.
If you can't tell which set of tracks were yours, or there aren't any tracks (hopefully since it rained yesterday), then where's the erosion?

No erosion = no violation.

FIGHT IT.
It DOES sound "winnable"!

If you lose, you have standing to file suit against the DNR and CRC for their lack of proper signage and can probably get more money for their negligence than the ticket cost you.

Last edited by Trail_Fanatic; September 30th, 2008 at 08:30 AM.
Trail_Fanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2008, 08:33 AM   #54
Trail_Fanatic
Member since 1994
 
Trail_Fanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-25-06
Location: Muskegon and Oceana Counties
Posts: 3,174
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Please fight it.

Neither the DNR, nor us wheelers, will know the REAL limits of the laws as written unless you do. Court is the REAL test of written law.

Please test this law.
It's WAY too vague to have on the books without further Judicial review.
Trail_Fanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2008, 08:34 AM   #55
TOPWOP
www.michatv.com
 
Join Date: 04-26-07
Location: Michigan
Posts: 133
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

I'd also make sure that you attend the next ORV Board meeting in Lansing on November 5th at 6:30 pm and make darn sure the entire ORV Board AND the DNR know exactly what happened.

We will never FIX any of this BS if we let it go unchallenged and just keep paying fines.
TOPWOP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2008, 08:51 AM   #56
Flexin' XJ
Senior Member
 
Flexin' XJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-04-07
Location: Holt, MI
Posts: 4,459
iTrader: (19)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Maybe this means nothing, but MSN maps has a gap on Magruder Rd. between Neilson Rd and M20. That makes me think it isn't a road at that point. It probably was at one point and then for some reason the county decided to stop taking care of that portion and no longer considers that a road.

I dunno, I'm not from that area but I hate seeing the law misapplied.

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?wi...Q2MDM4ODE4MzY=
Flexin' XJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2008, 09:06 AM   #57
CreativeFab
used to be Ironman
 
CreativeFab's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12-01-05
Location: midland
Posts: 3,214
iTrader: (35)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb8ymf View Post
Someone needs to get the Plat Map for that area to sort out the ownership lines. Anyone have that?
j-kb8ymf
I will try and get my plat book back today.
CreativeFab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2008, 11:04 AM   #58
kb8ymf
Not as old as Whiterhino
 
kb8ymf's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-01-06
Location: Dryden,Mi.
Posts: 1,112
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flexin' XJ View Post
Maybe this means nothing, but MSN maps has a gap on Magruder Rd. between Neilson Rd and M20. That makes me think it isn't a road at that point. It probably was at one point and then for some reason the county decided to stop taking care of that portion and no longer considers that a road.

I dunno, I'm not from that area but I hate seeing the law misapplied.
And if they haven't formally abandoned it, it's still county property NOT private land. Just because they aren't apply for state/federal funding to maintain the road doesn't mean it's not the county property.
When local residents find out the County is not going to maintain the road, many of them 'reach out' and take advantage of the 'grey' property lines that they reside next to. Given enough time. some residents actually believe that the 'newly found property' is actually theirs.
Trail Fanatic knows all about this tactic.

Also, you need to get conformation of property ownership in that area. That will consist of visiting the Township where the taxes are paid and looking in their plat book. The printed plat books are 'sometimes' out of date. Remember to, property lines can extend to the lot across the street with an easement overlaping both property owners. In that case, the easement is still a legal thoughfare.

There are just to many things that need clarification and as Pat and others have echoed, you NEED to FIGHT this. Not sure what the ORV Advisory Board could do about this unless it was a DNR officer (you didn't say who actually issued the ticket) and he issued a ticket on a county road which should have been open. In any case, my experience has been that trying to air problems with the department or interpetations rarely result and any thing constructive being decided. About the only thing you have to gain is alerting them to discrepancies among their own officers. (and sometimes embarrasing them)

jim-kb8ymf

Last edited by kb8ymf; September 30th, 2008 at 11:09 AM.
kb8ymf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2008, 06:31 PM   #59
TOPWOP
www.michatv.com
 
Join Date: 04-26-07
Location: Michigan
Posts: 133
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Jim,
Your right, I guess I just took it for granted that the ticket was issued by the DNR because it was an errosion issue. Very seldom [ at least in my area of the map ] does the County ever get involved in ORV issues. Most of them dont even know the laws themselves.

The ORV Board does very little except to listen to our complaints. But if we say NOTHING about this stuff, than everybody in a position of power will think everything is just fine within the system, and thats far from the truth.
TOPWOP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2008, 08:10 PM   #60
Hombre
I carry a shank
 
Hombre's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-15-06
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,549
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOPWOP View Post
Jim,
Your right, I guess I just took it for granted that the ticket was issued by the DNR because it was an errosion issue. Very seldom [ at least in my area of the map ] does the County ever get involved in ORV issues. Most of them dont even know the laws themselves.

The ORV Board does very little except to listen to our complaints. But if we say NOTHING about this stuff, than everybody in a position of power will think everything is just fine within the system, and thats far from the truth.
I don't want you speaking for me in any way, shape or form. kthanks.
Hombre is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > 4x4 Land Use > Rules, Regulations, Trail, and ORV Park Chat

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:54 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Page generated in 0.46637 seconds with 80 queries