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Old September 18th, 2008, 05:03 PM   #21
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heres one for you tool man time since the dems took control of house and senate gas prices have doubled they currently just passed a bill threw the house that would get rid of tax breakes for oil compaines im not against a govermentally controled oil compaine the problem is socilism has to have a religion to look good and right know it is this green thing and the dems jumped right on bored so they are going to make sure that gas fuel oil and other things are going to get worse so socilism looks like a good idea and public school are crap i know my moms a specile ed teacher and in davison teachers are not allowed to give a kid below a C because it hurts his self asteam well no we have a bunch of under educated kids in the work force and it is due to things like no child left behind and mistakes made by the sorry short on time so no periods and about spelling
ummm

. . . . . . . . . .

think I got it.

I'm not for socialism, or marxism, or bigger government. I don't blame any or party because they both suck.

The gov. is larger now than it has ever been. It has grown much more in the last 8 years than it ever should have..most under control of the party. The debt is ridiculous when a surplus was handed over to this administration....dubya took a long time to find his Veto stamp..it seems the taxpayers of the US are now in the mortgage and insurance industry...

why not just open a oil company??
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Old September 18th, 2008, 05:11 PM   #22
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Deregulation of electric & gas has not benefited residential customers at all.

In MI, residential rates are subsidized by commercial ratepayers (i.e. Meijer pays more so you pay less). Large industrials pay less due to massive volume - some large industrials pay based on demand, rather than actual usage.

MI deregulation benefited commercials and small industrials. They could buy power from Independent Energy Suppliers (IESes) at market rates and compete with the utilities.

Well, "compete" is a poor choice of words, since the utilities are required to sell at the MPSC-set rate, well above the market price - but at the same time are also required to sell at wholesale market rates to the IESes, so they can re-sell it at a profit, yet still below the mandated utility price. Yes, you read this correctly, the electric utilities are required to build and maintain generation capacity (including an excess safety margin in case a plant drops), maintain the distribution system, billing, etc... AND sell discounted power to their competition, so they can in turn re-sell it to the utility's former customers at a profit.

So much for "competition", eh? But it gets worse. Initially, the utilities were required to PAY their customers to sign up with the IESes to "stimulate" competition. One customer was paid over $1 million by a local utility to sign up with a competitor.

You'd think that the people who drafted those rules worked for the IESes. They didn't, at least not until the rules were passed into law, and several went onto their new jobs at the larger IESes.

Deregulation? BS.


I actually figured 84scrambler would have known those kind of details. I just know what I use and what I get charged and go from there. I also know of a few small business that moved a few miles north of me for much less expensive electricity, so I don't know if the laws are the same in OH or not.
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Old September 18th, 2008, 05:15 PM   #23
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ummm

. . . . . . . . . .

think I got it.

I'm not for socialism, or marxism, or bigger government. I don't blame any or party because they both suck.

The gov. is larger now than it has ever been. It has grown much more in the last 8 years than it ever should have..most under control of the party. The debt is ridiculous when a surplus was handed over to this administration....dubya took a long time to find his Veto stamp..it seems the taxpayers of the US are now in the mortgage and insurance industry...

why not just open a oil company??
i hear ya i dont like th bail out either the more u buck with wallstreet the more it bits back i like goverment controlled oil compaines on a state to state level im tierd of lining peoples pockets with my taxses
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Old September 18th, 2008, 05:18 PM   #24
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fwiw, the MI House & Senate both passed some rational legislation today to help fix the "deregulation" problem...

And fwiw^2, it's that keep pushing deregulation - so they do things that torque me off too...
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Old September 18th, 2008, 05:24 PM   #25
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i like deregulation the problem is we are no longer in competive market but not giving compaines tax breaks in the end means higher prices cause they have seen a large profit so there going to make sure they get it now buy raising prices to directly reflect taxes the problem is they will never lower them if taxes go down regulate on state levels not fedral
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Old September 19th, 2008, 10:50 AM   #26
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But you are ignoring that the supply is being controlled by OPEC. It is a commodity that might be traded on a global market, but the supply is controlled by a few foreign nations. You know how much a gallon of gas is in Saudi Arabia??? clicky

You ever hear of DeBeers??? They are the OPEC of diamonds..clicky That story is from a 1982 publication, the first couple paragraphs sums much of it up.... and they are currently in a class action suit.


And I'll bet you thought you paid a fair market price for your wife's ring..
"Fair market price" has no meaning.

Back to the topic at hand.....

So Your argument is that increasing our output wouldn't increase supply because they would cut their output? If that happened it would reduce opec's market share, increase our market share, bring more money back into this country, and weaken their control over the market. If they don't cut their output then prices drop. Either way more money is staying at home where it can be utilized by our economy not their economy.

I don't see how a gov't take over helps either way. The private industry is better equipt to accomplish the task.
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Old September 19th, 2008, 04:42 PM   #27
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"Fair market price" has no meaning.

Back to the topic at hand.....

So Your argument is that increasing our output wouldn't increase supply because they would cut their output? If that happened it would reduce opec's market share, increase our market share, bring more money back into this country, and weaken their control over the market. If they don't cut their output then prices drop. Either way more money is staying at home where it can be utilized by our economy not their economy.

I don't see how a gov't take over helps either way. The private industry is better equipt to accomplish the task.
No..my argument is not simple supply and demand..my argument is that with OIL much more than supply and demand affects the price of it's cost to consumers..beyond reasonable speculation. The amount of OIL that we (the US) has available would be like pissing in he ocean for the world market. http://www.opec.org/home/PowerPoint/...37;20share.htm

What makes you believe that more money will stay at home??? Because we will have oil wells here?? That OIL can just as easily end up in Russia, India or China.

If that OIL....OUR OIL stays here then we can reduce the cost to us.

I have faith in the public sector....but OIL today is much like food, some people have it, some have ALOT... but everyone needs it. Not that the FDA or the IRS or EPA or DEA etc. etc. are really worth a piss...but if they actually worked OUTSIDE of the influence of politics they COULD work. Never understood why someone new gets "appointed" in lower offices when the POTUS gets elected. Dumb.
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Old September 20th, 2008, 07:40 AM   #28
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No..my argument is not simple supply and demand..my argument is that with OIL much more than supply and demand affects the price of it's cost to consumers..beyond reasonable speculation. The amount of OIL that we (the US) has available would be like pissing in he ocean for the world market. http://www.opec.org/home/PowerPoint/...EC%20share.htm
We have 800 billion barrels of proven reserves in shale oil in the western united states that is recoverable using todays technology. Not counting the many other resources of oil like ANWAR and off shore drilling.

800,000,000,000 x $100 barrel = $80 trillion.

That $80 trillion would go to the oil companies in this country that extract the oil, to taxes and to royalities. Those companies would use that money to hire American workers to do the work, and re-invest the money in equipment and technology spuring growth in the market. The taxes and royalities would go to the government that could in turn lower tax rates or pay off debt. Most if not all of that money would go back into our economy at home.


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What makes you believe that more money will stay at home??? Because we will have oil wells here?? That OIL can just as easily end up in Russia, India or China. .
If the oil ends up in China, that's great. That means the Chinese paid us for our resources(the oil) in cash. Cash that goes back to our country by way of the American oil companies that provided the resource and helps America as stated above.

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If that OIL....OUR OIL stays here then we can reduce the cost to us.
And if it goes over seas and we sell it to someone else we get cash for it. The cash can then be used in our economy. That would strengthen the dollar, raise the standard of living relative to the cost of oil which would have the same end result, affordable gas.
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