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Old September 16th, 2008, 05:12 PM   #21
Kicker42
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Here is a thought

As Christians, we know that:

1. God created the earth and all of it's inhabitants
2. we humans were originally created to have been able to choose to remain perfect in the garden, but we chose to sin and damned all of humanity to be unable to achieve perfection, and this imperfection separates us from God
3. The death and resurrection of Jesus, God's only son, is the only things that made it possible to have communion with God

Now, I know that there is some more to it, but those are the basics of Christianity.

Here's what I don't get; did God, being the most powerful being ever created, have any control over whether evil and Satan were created? If he did, then I have a problem: my logic tells me that if God allowed evil to be introduced into the universe, then he made it necessary for His Son to die. It then becomes difficult for me to understand John 3:16 and other verses that portray God as having made such an incredible sacrifice by sending His own Son to die for our sins. I mean, if God allowed sin to be introduced into the world and then created a system in which humans had the potential to sin, and then made it so the only way to give us a chance to keep out of hell for eternity was for His own Son to have to become a man and be murdered by us, then it would seem that He Himself created this whole "game", if you would, and actually set His Son up for murder.

Now, you may be saying this is really sounding heretical. Well, that is not my intention. My intention is to rediscover the basis for my faith that I have had almost my entire life. And, until I hear satisfactory answers to these questions, I will continue to struggle with fully understanding God's love. To set your mind at ease, please know that I fully believe in the Bible and all it's teaching and have seen the evidence of God in my life, and understand fully and have seen the benefits of following the teachings of Jesus. All of that alone is evidence enough for me to continue to believe in God. However, when I try to explain the need for Jesus' death to non-Christians, I simply can't, and that bothers me, especially when I am now embarking into the mission field as a full-time musician.

Let's look at another option. Let's say God didn't have any control over the introduction of evil. The Bible says that Satan was once an angel who fell from grace. Did God create the angels? Isn't God the most powerful being? Didn't all life, since the beginning of time, come from him? Why did he create a defective angel? And, if he didn't have any control over the creation of evil, who did?

Now, it gets more complicated. Let's say that God didn't have any control over whether or not evil existed in the universe. Why was it necessary for Jesus to die? I mean, did he strike a deal with Satan that if God allowed His own son to be killed, then Satan would...what? I mean..I don't know! Why would God, the creator of all things, have to make a deal with Satan, a being He promised would be destroyed in the end? If you have the power to destroy something and cast it into a fiery pit, then why would you have to make a deal that involved the death of your son? This baffles me.

To my way of thinking, the least worst scenario would be that God had no control over the introduction of sin, evil, and Satan. This would mean that he isn't the most powerful being in the universe. And, in spite of this fact, he decided to create a world on which he would place beings (us) who would have souls that would exist forever in either heaven or hell The future of this world was placed in the hands of two people I've never met, they being Adam and Eve. They were given the choice to sin or not to sin. If they chose not to sin, then everything's great and earth is wonderful forever. However, if these two original inhabitants chose to sin, then every human created thereafter (none of whom actually chose to be born mind you) would be given the slim chance of saving themselves from hell by being fortunate enough to hear the gospel message through all the deceptions of the evil one in this world. If they don't ever get it explained to them, they'll most-likely spend eternity in hell.

So, souls that had no control over their own creation were created and placed in bodies on an evil earth where the chances of them accepting a salvation message necessary to keep them out of eternal damnation are quite slim due to Satan's great power of distraction and persuasion. Basically, God created a bunch of souls full-well knowing that most of them would wind up in hell forever. I mean, wouldn't it have been kinder to just not create any souls at all?

These are my thoughts. Some of you will say "we, as humans, cannot fully understand god's plans or his rules of existence..." and, for some, that answer will suffice. But, for me, it doesn't. Why? Because I don't think the loving God portrayed in the Bible would purposely make it necessary for His own son to die without a really good reason beyond His control. Your turn.

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Old September 16th, 2008, 06:18 PM   #22
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Way to deep for me
I allways thought Jesus made the decision. Isn't that why he says"Father forgive them for they know not what they do"?
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Old September 16th, 2008, 06:25 PM   #23
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burn all believers.
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Old September 16th, 2008, 06:50 PM   #24
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It sounds like he's going to end up saying "yes, we can all get along, if only everyone was Christian"

I do not think it's possible for humans to have lasting peace. People are to stupid for it to ever happen.
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Old September 16th, 2008, 07:35 PM   #25
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Why is it that we can't seem to get it right no matter how hard we try or how smart we get?

hahhahahahah, what a bunch of horse shit.


Confront your problems.
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Old September 16th, 2008, 07:39 PM   #26
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I do not believe there is a god. I live my life by the laws of nature.

I want to see this society fail, it's close. You cannot base your life or culture on a dollar.
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Old September 16th, 2008, 07:41 PM   #27
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it seems to me the only way for crazy ass christan nut to coigsist with every one else is join us or die
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Old September 16th, 2008, 07:41 PM   #28
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I believe in a thing called love
Just listen to the rhythm of my heart
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Old September 16th, 2008, 07:41 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by doomsick View Post
I do not believe there is a god. I live my life by the laws of nature.

I want to see this society fail, it's close. You cannot base your life or culture on a dollar.
better a dollar than on religion...
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Old September 16th, 2008, 07:42 PM   #30
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I believe in a thing called love
Just listen to the rhythm of my heart
is this an invitation?
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Old September 16th, 2008, 08:27 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
It sounds like he's going to end up saying "yes, we can all get along, if only everyone was Christian"

I do not think it's possible for humans to have lasting peace. People are to stupid for it to ever happen.










Very true, just use this site as an example
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Old September 16th, 2008, 09:00 PM   #32
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yeah, i'm thuper pissed...
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Old September 16th, 2008, 10:21 PM   #33
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Old September 17th, 2008, 05:19 AM   #34
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Religion is the root of most wars.
Yep. Kind or ironic.
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Old September 17th, 2008, 07:14 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kicker42 View Post
Here is a thought

As Christians, we know that:

1. God created the earth and all of it's inhabitants
2. we humans were originally created to have been able to choose to remain perfect in the garden, but we chose to sin and damned all of humanity to be unable to achieve perfection, and this imperfection separates us from God
3. The death and resurrection of Jesus, God's only son, is the only things that made it possible to have communion with God

Now, I know that there is some more to it, but those are the basics of Christianity.

Here's what I don't get; did God, being the most powerful being ever created, have any control over whether evil and Satan were created? If he did, then I have a problem: my logic tells me that if God allowed evil to be introduced into the universe, then he made it necessary for His Son to die. It then becomes difficult for me to understand John 3:16 and other verses that portray God as having made such an incredible sacrifice by sending His own Son to die for our sins. I mean, if God allowed sin to be introduced into the world and then created a system in which humans had the potential to sin, and then made it so the only way to give us a chance to keep out of hell for eternity was for His own Son to have to become a man and be murdered by us, then it would seem that He Himself created this whole "game", if you would, and actually set His Son up for murder.

Now, you may be saying this is really sounding heretical. Well, that is not my intention. My intention is to rediscover the basis for my faith that I have had almost my entire life. And, until I hear satisfactory answers to these questions, I will continue to struggle with fully understanding God's love. To set your mind at ease, please know that I fully believe in the Bible and all it's teaching and have seen the evidence of God in my life, and understand fully and have seen the benefits of following the teachings of Jesus. All of that alone is evidence enough for me to continue to believe in God. However, when I try to explain the need for Jesus' death to non-Christians, I simply can't, and that bothers me, especially when I am now embarking into the mission field as a full-time musician.

Let's look at another option. Let's say God didn't have any control over the introduction of evil. The Bible says that Satan was once an angel who fell from grace. Did God create the angels? Isn't God the most powerful being? Didn't all life, since the beginning of time, come from him? Why did he create a defective angel? And, if he didn't have any control over the creation of evil, who did?

Now, it gets more complicated. Let's say that God didn't have any control over whether or not evil existed in the universe. Why was it necessary for Jesus to die? I mean, did he strike a deal with Satan that if God allowed His own son to be killed, then Satan would...what? I mean..I don't know! Why would God, the creator of all things, have to make a deal with Satan, a being He promised would be destroyed in the end? If you have the power to destroy something and cast it into a fiery pit, then why would you have to make a deal that involved the death of your son? This baffles me.

To my way of thinking, the least worst scenario would be that God had no control over the introduction of sin, evil, and Satan. This would mean that he isn't the most powerful being in the universe. And, in spite of this fact, he decided to create a world on which he would place beings (us) who would have souls that would exist forever in either heaven or hell The future of this world was placed in the hands of two people I've never met, they being Adam and Eve. They were given the choice to sin or not to sin. If they chose not to sin, then everything's great and earth is wonderful forever. However, if these two original inhabitants chose to sin, then every human created thereafter (none of whom actually chose to be born mind you) would be given the slim chance of saving themselves from hell by being fortunate enough to hear the gospel message through all the deceptions of the evil one in this world. If they don't ever get it explained to them, they'll most-likely spend eternity in hell.

So, souls that had no control over their own creation were created and placed in bodies on an evil earth where the chances of them accepting a salvation message necessary to keep them out of eternal damnation are quite slim due to Satan's great power of distraction and persuasion. Basically, God created a bunch of souls full-well knowing that most of them would wind up in hell forever. I mean, wouldn't it have been kinder to just not create any souls at all?

These are my thoughts. Some of you will say "we, as humans, cannot fully understand god's plans or his rules of existence..." and, for some, that answer will suffice. But, for me, it doesn't. Why? Because I don't think the loving God portrayed in the Bible would purposely make it necessary for His own son to die without a really good reason beyond His control. Your turn.
That's a lotta' bitta' text but here's a little bitty answer (and I'm sure Kerwin could do a million times better than me at this).

God creates things with free will. If Mr. Toes decides to turn evil, is God terrible because He created something evil? He created something that was intended for good, but, through free will turned evil. Does that make God less powerful? Because He CHOSE to allow it to happen? ...to allow free will to exist? I don't think so. Parents have to "let go of the bicycle" and sometimes your kid will fall, but, if you would have held on, how would you have ever known if he could ride the bike by him/herself?

God created Satan. Satan was the frickin' choir director, and God's right hand man, but it wasn't good enough for Satan. Free will, BAMF, he turned evil.

Similarly to how he sent Abraham to murder his son to show Abraham's dedication to God (which God called off at the last second), God SENT HIS SON TO DIE FOR HUMANITY. He made a new world order and a pact. He did this as an example of his love and his offer of salvation (through rising Jesus from the dead), and to call off all of the sacrificial offerings (because the ultimate sacrifice was made).

Also, we discussed the whole "what if you never heard of Jesus" clause, but I can't remember it enough to contribute it here; maybe Dave can step in for me there. God did say, however, that he would not come back until his message has spread throughout all the Earth, so everyone will have a fair chance.

Ktimeformorningnomnoms
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Old September 17th, 2008, 08:41 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by doomsick View Post
I do not believe there is a god. I live my life by the laws of nature.

I want to see this society fail, it's close. You cannot base your life or culture on a dollar.
What are the "laws of nature?" New one on me

This society is not close to failing at all... in fact it's no where NEAR falling. Maybe you have heard about the Great Depression? It wasn't going to fail then either.

Thanks for the update GL. I saw this sign on Sprinkle road and I wondered what it's all about. The same people with those coexist bumper stickers are the ones giving kids chicken beaks outside of Wendy's
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Old September 17th, 2008, 08:51 AM   #37
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Thanks for the update GL. I saw this sign on Sprinkle road and I wondered what it's all about. The same people with those coexist bumper stickers are the ones giving kids chicken beaks outside of Wendy's
Yeah, I was riding my bicycle and went to turn around in a driveway 1/2 mile - 1 mileish past your house, and stumbled upon the Fetzer Institute...Plenty of those bumper stickers there too.

The pastor was trying to draw attention to the "?" after the "Coexist", but it confused me at first too.
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Old September 17th, 2008, 08:54 AM   #38
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Why the hell are the bible thumpers even concerned with the earths survival?? I thought they all jack off in dark corners waiting for the earth to burn, (as their bible tells them it will) and waiting for the end?

If I could alter christianity in one way, I would make suicide acceptable. That way, they can all find their way to god and away from reality asap, and more oxygen for the rest of us!
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Old September 17th, 2008, 08:58 AM   #39
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coexistance is extremely easy to do. get rid of all religion. done.
now we as human beings can get down to what is really important and solve some problems.
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Old September 17th, 2008, 09:00 AM   #40
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Yeah, I was riding my bicycle and went to turn around in a driveway 1/2 mile - 1 mileish past your house, and stumbled upon the Fetzer Institute...Plenty of those bumper stickers there too.

The pastor was trying to draw attention to the "?" after the "Coexist", but it confused me at first too.
You want to be more confused, read their website
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