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Old September 2nd, 2008, 08:45 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by bigwalton View Post
But man, you compared Wasila to a town outside YOSIMITE and you balk when I say there's nothing close to that in Wasila?
It is spelled Yosemite and he was talking about Yellowstone.
And almost 70% of the the land in Alaska is federal land.
USFS land is better that NPS, you can kill stuff.
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 08:46 PM   #162
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Ok, perfect. Here's a serious question for you. Forgetting anything about her other than this one issue, you'd accept it if the dems put Granholm on a ticket and then cited that as qualifying her in foreign policy?

I never said a thing about Granholm's "foreign policy" experience and I wouldn't give her ONE BIT of credit for anything that she has to deal with the Canadians on...

Where did I say I was an expert?? Where did I address anything about the "locals"?? I can certainly weigh in when you ask the guy if he's been to Alaska/Wasila on a question about tourism in Wasila. I did look at what there was to do in the places I wanted to visit. That was it in Wasila. That's EXACTLY what you were talking about. I didn't pretend to know what the actual use of the RR was, I didn't speculate on what other things that the RR could be for, I just addressed the specific question of the RR as a tourist conduit. Nothing I said implied that there couldn't be a hundred other valid reasons...

But man, you compared Wasila to a town outside YOSIMITE and you balk when I say there's nothing close to that in Wasila?
I would dare say that any town in Alaska that can be gotten to attracts lots of tourists every year. I said Yellowstone, not Yosemite.
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 09:59 PM   #163
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I would dare say that any town in Alaska that can be gotten to attracts lots of tourists every year.
Yes, just like Yellowstone.

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Originally Posted by Hombre View Post
I said Yellowstone, not Yosemite.
My apologies on incorrectly recalling and misspelling the massive American tourist attraction to which you compared Wasilla.
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Old September 2nd, 2008, 11:26 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Infinite_Wisdumb View Post
Here are some of her stances:

http://www.ontheissues.org/Sarah_Palin.htm

Here are the ones I dont like:

Supports teaching intelligent design in public schools. (Aug 2008)
Opposes stem cell research. (Aug 2008)
Vetoed bill denying benefits to gays, as unconstitutional. (Aug 2008) although she previously said it was OK
Ok to deny benefits to homosexual couples. (Aug 2006)
Teach creationism alongside evolution in schools. (Aug 2008)
Sue US government to stop listing polar bear as endangered. (Aug 2008) WAT?


And ones I like:
Encourage small business growth by reducing business taxes. (Nov 2006)
Windfall oil profits tax prevents investment. (Aug 2008)
Health care must be market-and business-driven. (Jan 2008)

You where actually doing Ok till this
Sue US government to stop listing polar bear as endangered. (Aug 2008) WAT?
The truth is the Polar Bear population has had a steady increase for about 30 years.
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 07:16 AM   #165
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You where actually doing Ok till this
Sue US government to stop listing polar bear as endangered. (Aug 2008) WAT?
The truth is the Polar Bear population has had a steady increase for about 30 years.
That would make me feel a lot better considering what we've been hearing for a while now re: global warming. Got a good site to back that up?
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 07:26 AM   #166
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That would make me feel a lot better considering what we've been hearing for a while now re: global warming. Got a good site to back that up?
You actually believe in global warming?
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 07:29 AM   #167
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You actually believe in global warming?
Seriously folks, people here need to stop reading stuff into what folks post. Where did I say anything about believing global warming????

I just said we'd heard about it, nothing at all about believing it.

I'd like facts to back up the polar bear thing precisely because it goes against what we're hearing.
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 08:35 AM   #168
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You where actually doing Ok till this
Sue US government to stop listing polar bear as endangered. (Aug 2008) WAT?
The truth is the Polar Bear population has had a steady increase for about 30 years.

I guess my points here were
a) Dont you have anything better to do while in office
b) Whats the point? Does it not deserve to be endangered? Waste of my taxpayer dollar
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 08:36 AM   #169
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Ok, perfect. Here's a serious question for you. Forgetting anything about her other than this one issue, you'd accept it if the dems put Granholm on a ticket and then cited that as qualifying her in foreign policy?

I never said a thing about Granholm's "foreign policy" experience and I wouldn't give her ONE BIT of credit for anything that she has to deal with the Canadians on...




Where did I say I was an expert?? Where did I address anything about the "locals"?? I can certainly weigh in when you ask the guy if he's been to Alaska/Wasila on a question about tourism in Wasila. I did look at what there was to do in the places I wanted to visit. That was it in Wasila. That's EXACTLY what you were talking about. I didn't pretend to know what the actual use of the RR was, I didn't speculate on what other things that the RR could be for, I just addressed the specific question of the RR as a tourist conduit. Nothing I said implied that there couldn't be a hundred other valid reasons...

But man, you compared Wasila to a town outside YOSIMITE and you balk when I say there's nothing close to that in Wasila?
Well said Sir.
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 08:40 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Infinite_Wisdumb View Post
I guess my points here were
a) Dont you have anything better to do while in office
b) Whats the point? Does it not deserve to be endangered? Waste of my taxpayer dollar
Yeah, I'd prefer it would stay on the endangered list and cost us taxpayers BILLIONS of dollars per year (similar to this: http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3756 ) than spend a few thousand (or, heck, even tens of thousands) to have it removed from the list.

(That fish is endangered, and, thus was given $5 and not harmed during the animation of this .gif )
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 08:48 AM   #171
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If something is endangered it means that it may not exist for much longer if current trends persist. You mean to tell me you dont want polar bears around for your kids to see and read about? You want to tell them "Yes little Bobby, I voted for the lady who took them off the endangered list, and now they are all gone. Sorry you cant see one but I liked that she is a hunter so she got my vote."

We spend a lot more money on other programs that are a lot less important than preserving our wildlife, I thought most people on this board would be pro-wilderness.
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 09:00 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Infinite_Wisdumb View Post
If something is endangered it means that it may not exist for much longer if current trends persist. You mean to tell me you dont want polar bears around for your kids to see and read about? You want to tell them "Yes little Bobby, I voted for the lady who took them off the endangered list, and now they are all gone. Sorry you cant see one but I liked that she is a hunter so she got my vote."

We spend a lot more money on other programs that are a lot less important than preserving our wildlife, I thought most people on this board would be pro-wilderness.
You were the one complaining about money, so I thought I'd do a comparison of expenses.

Am I pro-wilderness? I wouldn't say that I'm anti-wilderness... I've put over 370 miles on my bicycle and .5 miles on my Jeep in the past 3.5 weeks. What do you do?

Is doing my part to try to stop the source of the problem better than giving billions of dollars to fund corporations and government committees to make "educated" decisions and look pretty for the press (I know they do SOME good...but do they do billions of dollars worth of good)?

Most of the polar bear hype seems to be very future oriented. The population has remained pretty stable since we've been able to "accurately" estimate the population. There is just fear in what is to come with global warming, etc. If this is our metric, we should include humans on that list...I'm skeered for our future too...
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 09:18 AM   #173
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You were the one complaining about money, so I thought I'd do a comparison of expenses.

Am I pro-wilderness? I wouldn't say that I'm anti-wilderness... I've put over 370 miles on my bicycle and .5 miles on my Jeep in the past 3.5 weeks. What do you do?

Is doing my part to try to stop the source of the problem better than giving billions of dollars to fund corporations and government committees to make "educated" decisions and look pretty for the press (I know they do SOME good...but do they do billions of dollars worth of good)?

Most of the polar bear hype seems to be very future oriented. The population has remained pretty stable since we've been able to "accurately" estimate the population. There is just fear in what is to come with global warming, etc. If this is our metric, we should include humans on that list...I'm skeered for our future too...

Fair enough, your rationale is logical.
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 09:21 AM   #174
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Fair enough, your rationale is logical.
...


...Did that just happen...

I didn't know we were capable of a statement like that in this forum...

...

Surely, the end of the world is upon us...
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 09:23 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by General Lee View Post
...


...Did that just happen...

I didn't know we were capable of a statement like that in this forum...

...

Surely, the end of the world is upon us...
X2

I thought the standard reply when you realize someone else is right on here is "Go fukc yourself" ???
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 09:41 AM   #176
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From what I understand, the polar bear being falsely on the endangered species list meant that its entire habitat - however many thousand miles square - was "protected" from any type of exploitation including oil or gas exploration. I dont feel like looking up sources.

Is the polar bear endangered/population declining, yes or no? If it is not then it should not be on the endangered species list.
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 10:01 AM   #177
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That would make me feel a lot better considering what we've been hearing for a while now re: global warming. Got a good site to back that up?


Arctic Refuge Coastal Plain Terrestrial Wildlife Research Summaries

Section 8: Polar Bears

Subsections:
Movements and Population Dynamics of Polar Bears
Reproductive Significance of Maternity Denning on Land
References

By: Steven C. Amstrup

Movements and Population Dynamics of Polar Bears

Polar bears (Ursus maritimus) are hunted throughout most of their range. In addition to hunting, polar bears of the Beaufort Sea region are exposed to mineral and petroleum extraction and related human activities such as shipping, road-building, and seismic testing (Stirling 1990).

Little was known at the start of this project about how polar bears move about in their environment; and although it was understood that many bears travel across political borders, the boundaries of populations had not been delineated (Amstrup 1986, Amstrup et al. 1986, Amstrup and DeMaster 1988, Garner et al. 1994, Amstrup 1995, Amstrup et al. 1995, Amstrup 2000).

As human populations increase and demands for polar bears and other arctic resources escalate, managers must know the sizes and distributions of the polar bear populations. Resource managers also need reliable estimates of breeding rates, reproductive intervals, litter sizes, and survival of young and adults.

Our objectives for this research were 1) to determine the seasonal and annual movements of polar bears in the Beaufort Sea, 2) to define the boundaries of the population(s) using this region, 3) to determine the size and status of the Beaufort Sea polar bear population, and 4) to establish reproduction and survival rates (Amstrup 2000).

One-hundred-fifty-three satellite radio collars (PTTs), fitted to 106 adult female polar bears in the Beaufort Sea, were relocated 37,277 times between 1985 and 1993 (Amstrup 1995, Amstrup 2000, Amstrup et al. 2000). Polar bears were observed to move more than 4 km/hr for extended periods, but mean hourly rates of movement varied from 0.30-0.96 km/hr. Females with cubs had lower hourly rates of movement than females with yearlings and those (single females) without young.

Movement rates varied significantly among months: they generally were lowest in spring and late summer and highest in early winter (Amstrup 1995, Amstrup et al. 2000). Geographic displacements from the beginning to the end of each month were smaller for females with cubs of the year than for single females, and larger in November than in April.

In May, June, July, and August, radio-collared bears shifted locations to the north. Collared bears moved back to the south in October. Mean total distances moved each month ranged from 186-492 km. Total movements in December were larger than those measured in April, May, July, August, and September, and total monthly movements of females with cubs were lower than single females.

Total annual movements ranged from 1,454-6,203 km. Bears that spent part of the year in dens moved less than others, but non-denning classes of bears did not differ in total annual movement (Amstrup 1995, Amstrup et al. 2000).

Females with cubs were generally the most active group, and single females the least active. Highest and lowest levels of activity were recorded in June and September, but there also was a strong activity peak in early winter. Activity levels were lowest in the early morning and higher from mid-day through late evening.

Beaufort Sea polar bears kept their movements within boundaries outside of which they seldom ventured. Annual activity areas ranged from 12,730 km2 to 596,800 km2. Monthly activity areas ranged from a mean of 344 km2 for females with cubs in April to 11,926 km2 for females with yearlings in December (Amstrup 1995, Amstrup et al. 2000).

Bears from the Beaufort Sea population occupied an area extending up to 300 km offshore, from Cape Bathurst in Canada to Pt. Hope, Alaska, and enclosing 939,153 km2 (Amstrup et al. 1986, Garner et al. 1994, Amstrup 2000).

Animals originally captured along the Beaufort Sea coast spent approximately 25% of their time in the northeastern Chukchi Sea, but animals captured in the Chukchi Sea ventured into the Beaufort Sea only 6% of the time. With few exceptions (Durner and Amstrup 1995) bears captured in the Beaufort Sea were faithful to summer activity areas in the central portion of the Beaufort Sea (Amstrup et al. 1986, Amstrup 1995, Amstrup et al. 1995, Amstrup et al. 2000). Although any bear caught in this region could be relocated anywhere else in the region, individual bears appeared faithful to general geographic regions (Fig. 8.1). Recent analyses of patterns in seasonal fidelity of polar bears (Bethke et al. 1996) suggested that 3 separate populations or stocks could be distinguished.



Figure 8.1. Numbers and relocation positions of satellite radio-collared polar bears (# of individuals) captured in each of 6 longitudinal zones within the Beaufort Sea. Histograms illustrate proportions of those relocations made in each zone. For example, 32% of the 2,226 relocations of bears originally captured in the Lonely zone were recorded in the Barter Island zone, Alaska; 47% of the 1,079 relocations of bears captured in the Wainwright zone, Alaska, were recorded in the Chukchi zone.

These 3 relatively discrete stocks overlap to a greater or lesser extent within Alaska waters (S. C. Amstrup, U.S. Geological Survey, unpublished data). Therefore, it is no longer reasonable to refer to only 1 group of polar bears (Amstrup 1995, Amstrup 2000) occupying this region (Amstrup et al. 2001). Although these groups are not distinguishable genetically (Paetkau et al. 1999), they are distinct enough to mandate management recognition.

Two groups, the Chukchi Sea and the Southern Beaufort Sea populations, share the mainland coastal areas of Alaska in the greatest numbers (Amstrup et al. 2001). Recognition of these stocks helps to explain some of the movement patterns previously observed. These 2 groups supply most of the harvest of polar bears that occurs in Alaska and much of the harvest along the mainland coast of northwestern Canada.

Data were analyzed for 589 captures of 534 bears between 1967-1974 (a period of hypothesized over-harvest) and for 1,087 captures of 789 bears obtained between 1981-1992 (a period when the population should have recovered from over-harvest). Population growth throughout the intervening years was also examined (Amstrup 1995, Amstrup et al. 2001).

Amstrup et al. (2001) and McDonald and Amstrup (2001) suggested that the number of polar bears in the Southern Beaufort Sea population grew at more than 3% per year between 1967 and 1998, reaching an estimated population that could be as high as 2,500 animals.

Although contact with hydrocarbons can have serious ramifications for polar bears (Amstrup et al. 1989), the polar bearís apparent rapid population growth has spanned the entire history of petroleum development in arctic Alaska (Amstrup 2000, Amstrup et al. 2001, McDonald and Amstrup 2001). This suggests that managed resource development can be compatible with healthy polar bear populations. Also encouraging is the new ability to estimate potential impacts that oil spills may have on polar bears. That ability has major ramifications for assessing risks of a variety of potential developments (Durner et al. 2001b).

Both long and short-term trends in condition of individual animals were observed during this study. Condition of adult females, as reflected by total mass, showed significant seasonal trends (Durner and Amstrup 1996). Despite seasonal fluctuations, longer-term trends also were suggested. Trends in recruitment and survival rates (in the 1970s compared with those from 1980 through 1992) suggested an inverse compensatory relationship between total population size and recruitment of subadults. Population size alone explained 55% of the variation in proportions of 2- and 3-year-olds in annual samples (Amstrup 1995). Large populations of the latter part of the study appeared to recruit proportionately fewer juveniles, and smaller populations of the early part of the study recruited higher proportions of juveniles.

Condition of single adult females and those with cubs, as reflected in measurements of axial girth, appeared to decline significantly as the population grew. Population size alone explained 75% of the variation in axial girth of reproductive age females.

Although numbers of young produced per female when the population was small (<0.40) and when it was large (<0.38) were similar, litters of more than one yearling were more frequent when the population was small. Sampling inconsistencies during the 2 periods precluded comparison across years for cubs and 2-year-olds but not for yearlings. Observed reproductive intervals of 3.4 and 3.7 years in early and late periods were suggestive of change, but not significantly different (Amstrup 1995). The age structure of the small population was younger than that of the larger population of later years.

Survival of adults, as calculated from life tables, was higher and survival of young lower when the population was large. Survival rates of adult Beaufort Sea polar bears, however, were as high or higher than those measured anywhere else. Annual survival of radio-collared females ranged from 0.946-0.980 (Amstrup and Durner 1995). Survival of cubs ranged between 0.610 and 0.675, while that of yearlings was 0.751-0.903.

In this study hunting explained 85% of the documented deaths of adult female polar bears (Amstrup and Durner 1995). Natural mortalities were not commonly observed among prime age animals (Amstrup and Nielsen 1989), and we still know little about the proximate causes of natural deaths among polar bears.

In the early 1990s, the trends described above suggested a population that could be approaching carrying capacity and was either stable or growing more slowly than in the early 1980s. More recent data suggest an alternate hypothesis: Apparent density dependence was a function of more transitory ecological effects. The apparent continued growth of the population into the late 1990s and the expansion of numbers of maternal dens as well as expanded areas used for denning (see below) appear to contradict earlier conclusions regarding carrying capacity and density effects. This suggests that issues related to population status should be revisited (Amstrup et al. 1986, Amstrup 1995, Amstrup et al. 2001, McDonald and Amstrup 2001).

Estimated numbers of bears at the close of the study were relatively large. Effects of the increasing human intrusions into the polar bear environment have not been observed at a population level, suggesting that proactive management can assure coexistence of polar bears and human developments.

Absolute numbers of bears, however, still are small compared to many other species. Early estimates suggested the additional loss of as few as 30 bears each year might push the total take from the population to the maximum sustained yield (Amstrup et al 1986, Amstrup and DeMaster 1988). Excess take did precipitate a decline in the 1960s and 1970s. Hence, although populations may now be near historic highs, managers must be alert to possible changes in human activities, including hunting and habitat alterations that could precipitate future declines.
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 10:16 AM   #178
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If something is endangered it means that it may not exist for much longer if current trends persist. You mean to tell me you dont want polar bears around for your kids to see and read about? You want to tell them "Yes little Bobby, I voted for the lady who took them off the endangered list, and now they are all gone. Sorry you cant see one but I liked that she is a hunter so she got my vote."

We spend a lot more money on other programs that are a lot less important than preserving our wildlife, I thought most people on this board would be pro-wilderness.

The current trend is, the population has had continued growth for over 30 years.

It seems to me the waste is to spend money to bullshit people into thinking they are endangered if they are not.

Does she have better things to do, probally, but this is also her job.

Jen could take a lesson from her and start doing her job.
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 10:26 AM   #179
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The current trend is, the population has had continued growth for over 30 years.

It seems to me the waste is to spend money to bullshit people into thinking they are endangered if they are not.

Does she have better things to do, probally, but this is also her job.

Jen could take a lesson from her and start doing her job.
I believe I read that they were being listed as endangered due to loss of habitat caused by global warming.
Another dispute for another thread is global warming man caused damage?Or just normal life cycles of the planet?
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Old September 3rd, 2008, 07:35 PM   #180
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It's a fake, forgive me
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