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Old April 27th, 2006, 11:51 AM   #21
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Think about things this way:


This is a free market economy. People are free to buy what they want, and that sets the market. Product is the #1 factor in sales. If price was the biggest factor, we'd all have bought Hyundai's years ago. Product is what sells.

The focus needs to come off of those silly arguements about media bias and whatnot. (The focus needs to come off of Jingoistic rhetoric, too.)


The japanese are selling a product that people want. For WHATEVER reason. The reason is immaterial.

If GM and Ford and DCX(a foreign car company) want to survive, they need to design and sell product that people want. Period.

If its a perception problem, then quit crying and find a way to change prception.




The fact is, that if you have a company that is counting on a significant amount of sales out of sympahthy, out of loyalty, out of misguided 'patriotism', that company is DEAD. That is a rediculous and unsustainable business model.

Eventually, they will have to actually sell product that people are interested in, FREE OF HOOKS.




If you were to invest in a company, would you rather invest in one that produces state of the art product with a popular and growing following, or one that you know has a business model depending on owner loyalty to maintain market share... which would you invest in?
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Old April 27th, 2006, 11:54 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirrelWJ
I love how a quality control issue can condemn an entire company for forever.
Well, thats life. And ford has had a rather checked past with many many many high profile electrical problems.

I find it funny, as I design electronics for ford from time to time, and they are by far the most rigorous in terms of checking electronic worst case design.

Although, their specifications are garbage and frequently leave out important details, hard to believe given the length of them...
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Old April 27th, 2006, 11:57 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PavementPounder
I would define it as a vehicle produced by a non-US-based company that brought the car, or the production of the car to the US. I'm not 100% sure, but wording it that way may cover situations like DCX.
So, cars like the Accord, which is designed and built in the US market specifically for the US market, thats american?

most japanese vehicles for this market are built in this market, and most are differnet than the JDM and EDM vehicles, since Americans are fat and like torque over horsepower and soft mushy suspensions..


~65% of japanese vehicles meet your criteria.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 11:59 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScOoTeR
Toyota/honda/subaru/suzuki/mmc/etc all return money to foreign corps, no matter where they're made or who they employ.
so does, um, whats its name.. oh, yes, JEEP..



So, a Subaru is Bad, but a Saab 9-2X is OK?
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Old April 27th, 2006, 12:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirrelWJ
I love how a quality control issue can condemn an entire company for forever.

Haha, i was talking about something that happened last night on a 2006 with around 10k miles.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 12:01 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar
So, cars like the Accord, which is designed and built in the US market specifically for the US market, thats american?

No, I think you forgot the non-US-based company part of my statement. The Accord would be classified as a foreign car.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 12:04 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PavementPounder
No, I think you forgot the non-US-based company part of my statement. The Accord would be classified as a foreign car.
You are trying to weasel out a way to not have the rules apply to DCX. Sorry, but its not going to happen. They are a German owned company, no matter how you want to slice the bread.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 12:04 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PavementPounder
No, I think you forgot the non-US-based company part of my statement. The Accord would be classified as a foreign car.
If you are going to narrow your criteria down why don't you just come out and say, "Cars made by the big 3(or their subsidiaries) are ok"?

I think thats really what a lot of the argument comes down to is its the Big 3 vs. the world.

I want to know, is Hyundai ok? I've heard they are owned by DCX and they did just build that billion dollar plant in Alabama.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 12:16 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschaffer66
If you are going to narrow your criteria down why don't you just come out and say, "Cars made by the big 3(or their subsidiaries) are ok"?

I think thats really what a lot of the argument comes down to is its the Big 3 vs. the world.

I want to know, is Hyundai ok? I've heard they are owned by DCX and they did just build that billion dollar plant in Alabama.

Yes, I am. But only because Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep actually started here and were not brought here.

No, I would say that technically Hyundai was brought here, so my rule doesn't protect all interests of DCX. I actually considered that because if its going to apply, it should apply to the Europeans as well. Maybe D will let CX go. :tonka:
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Old April 27th, 2006, 12:23 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PavementPounder
Yes, I am. But only because Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep actually started here and were not brought here.

No, I would say that technically Hyundai was brought here, so my rule doesn't protect all interests of DCX. I actually considered that because if its going to apply, it should apply to the Europeans as well. Maybe D will let CX go. :tonka:
Which goes against the whole patriotism thing and keeping money here.


Funny.... the Japanese automakers are ADDING jobs to the US economy, building plants and investing money. The largest auto plants in the US are 'foreign' companies.

At the same time the US automakers (and that German one..) are selling and closing plants and outsourcing work to other countries..
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Old April 27th, 2006, 12:27 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschaffer66
Haha, i was talking about something that happened last night on a 2006 with around 10k miles.
What did I tell you when you made that arguement to me last night? It's not Ford's fault I dont put gas in my truck is it? :miff: I mean I would like it if they designed the new F150 to run on air too, but mine is supposed to have gas in it. ( I havent gotten gas yet by the way )
Point two is that if there is a black person or two around it doesnt automatically qualify as "the ghetto".
Shouldnt you be out making parts for one of the big three... talk about lazy american labor.. sheesh... :tonka:

I think that people who are saying crap about the quality of the vehicles didnt read the article I posted and are just spouting off their anti-american car predisposed crap. I grew up in a family that worked for Ford, and I work for Ford. I think that even though they dont pay you specifically to drive their vehicle, they are putting the food on your table. Even people in the local area who aren't working directly for the big three are affected by the economic health of the automakers. The auto industry is suffering and I can see the impact just in my housing value alone.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 12:57 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann
The auto industry is suffering and I can see the impact just in my housing value alone.
This is more of a Michigan thing.. Thank the mole-faced chick..


By the way, we drive a ford focus, and its an awesome car. I always buy the best car for my family. That focus wagon rocks, and was the best for us. Ford doesn't make a good minivan, period. Neither does GM. Chrysler's is good but about to be replaced and not meeting our timeline. Nissan has quality issues, Mazda has nothing. We'll buy a Honda or a Toyota, because they are the best out there for us.

Every time I buy a vehicle, I'll buy the best for my needs.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 01:20 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann
What did I tell you when you made that arguement to me last night? It's not Ford's fault I dont put gas in my truck is it? :miff: I mean I would like it if they designed the new F150 to run on air too, but mine is supposed to have gas in it. ( I havent gotten gas yet by the way )
Ummm....if you have driven to work, then to lunch and back, and not gotten fuel I'm thinking that low fuel wasn't the problem.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 01:31 PM   #34
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Another thing I have to say about this is that it seems like people are trying to turn the American automotive industry into some sort of battered charity case like the Red Cross.

The big 3 are in the business to make money. They will do whatever needs to be done to do that, whether its good for me, you, Joe Slacker on the line, or anyone lower on the totem pole than the people making big decisions.

Let me pose this question to the audience. I'm very curious how everyone feels. Lets do a for intance... Everyone starts being a good patriotic American and quits buying foriegn cars. Every driveway has a GM/Ford/DCX(i know thats still up for debate). The Big 3's profits and sales volumes soar to new heights. But over the past decade they have outsourced major parts of their operations, outsourced a lot of their engineering, and beat the hell out of their suppliers that were still in the country. Do you guys honestly think they are going to say, "Hey, lets quit outsourcing and bring all of that work back into our country eventhough doing so will cut into our profits?"

I don't think they will.

With that I have to go make parts for the semi-American company.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 01:43 PM   #35
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Exactly..


Funny thing, is that so many people want them to be 'American' companies, yet they do not. They want to be GLOBAL companies, and understand that is key to survival.

I see quite a bit of GMs workings. Right now, I'm working on quotes for the Epsilon II Family 2 and 3 vehicles, and Long Wheelbase Zeta platform. This is global stuff. Egnineering spread across the world.

If they buy american people really got what they want, they'd kill the big 3. Something they've never been able to see.

Buys american for the sake of buying american hastens the demise of these companies.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 01:57 PM   #36
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When I think of the word "investment", I think of money that will not be around forever.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 05:33 PM   #37
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just a few observations...

I find it interesting that some people will say that they want to support local businesses and shops but don't feel it necessary to support the businesses that employ many of the people they see every day.


And in interesting fact that furthwer confuses the question of whats domestic vs import... Of the 15 or so years I've been in the auto business I have been employeed buy an American business for only about 3 of those years. The rest of the time, including now, I have been employeed by British owned companys.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 05:39 PM   #38
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I've been employed by US, German, and French companies, currently German.

I used to work for a German OEM, on the Jeep platform..
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Old April 27th, 2006, 05:51 PM   #39
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i have only owned american made cars and trucks cause they fit the need and fit my price better (they were all used by the way).

I recognize the gains the domestics made in the last 5 years. Part of the problem is they expect everyone to throw their arms up and say "ohh shit we were wrong lets trade in the camry on a new impala."

1. not everyone buys a new car every year, and not everyone else in the country has a hook up on employee pricing like detroiters do. The fact that in the last few years quality has meet or beat much of the japanese competition is great, but also realize much of the country is not as auto focused as us jeepers or the geater detroit public. Sure there are car guys everywhere but its not like detroit. Just like it took a good 10 years for lots of folks to throw in the towel on their domestic loyalty it will take more than 3 good years showing in JD powers to bring people back. PLUS they have to overcome bad experiences with old customers, and woo them away from makers that never turned out shit like the big 3 did in the 70's and 80's.

I never got burned with a pos in the 70's and 80's but my dad has had a good 4-5 total pos lemons that he poured tons of hours working on, taking in for warranty work, wasting his time and money on. that equaled ten of thousands of dollars especially when you factor in resale price hit he took, had he bought a camry or accord.

Take a look around there is lots of old dudes from WWII driving german and jap cars, if the domestics were shitty enough to turn these old veterans sour on the domestics what chance does the big 3 have of converting some hippy liberal college professor from buying volvos or over comming the stigma of the domestics in cali. They dont care about our economy in cali. Its allot more complex than turning out decent cars for 3 years and expecting people to pay list price and be in a line around the corner or wait list for a buick.

There are millions of people the big 3 burned and will never get back. I know people that dont shop stores or resturants from the way they were treated on a small consumer item warranty. How about getting fucked over on a pos you paid 30 grand for a number of times. that leaves a really sour taste in your mouth.

Big 3 has gotta to WAAAAY out do the japs to get people back, they are just barely beating the lesser jap makers.

They are not trouncing Honda or Toyota.

I dont think its unpatriotic cause you have to do whats best for you (in the short term or long term) the auto makers are not looking out for me, also i dont think you can say its not patriotic to not buy domestics if you buy foreign cloths, furnature, and electronics. Thats just being selfish cause so many here work in auto ind. what about all the hundreds of thousands that used to make electronics and cloths in america.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 06:04 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiesann
I recognize the gains the domestics made in the last 5 years. Part of the problem is they expect everyone to throw their arms up and say "ohh shit we were wrong lets trade in the camry on a new impala."
I don't think anyone expects that. Mostly what i hear people saying is "look at what we're making now." I don't think the asian imports of the '70 were great cars, but because they already made small cars for thier home markets they managed to make better small cars quicker than the domestics because they had experiance building them.

I'm not sure why but it seems to me that most import buyers are more forgiving of problems with thier imports than they are with a domestic they owned 30 years ago that had a problem.
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