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Old May 4th, 2010, 12:24 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by ScOoTeR View Post


Although...
...listening to his speeches against Arizona's new immigration laws and the way the press has picked up and run with the "present your papers / nazi germany" theme, you swear it was to draw attention away from something else.

I find it very troubling that we hold such high standards and requirements for Europeans and Asians to obtain U.S. Citizenship (My wife and her family emigrated from Russian in 1994 and now are naturalized citizens of the United States; AMERICANS), yet, we turn a blind eye to the influx of illegals over our southern border.

Quite disturbing, in fact, that these illegals have "anchor" babies and then qualify for federal aid - then somehow insert themselves into our system, again - illegally, and drain resources from American Citizens.

Honestly - it isn't THAT difficult to get citizenship here, why would our President poo-poo a state law enacted purely because the INS refuses to do its job?
I read this earier. There was a FEDERAL law passed in the 40's requiring foreigners to carry papers and or ID at all times. And they were put there by the very liberal FDR!

"Some people might not know that since the 1940s, federal law has required non-citizens who are in the United States permanently to carry on their person, at all times, the official documents proving that they are here legally — green card, work visa, etc. That has been the law for 70 years, and the new Arizona law does not change it."

I guess it was brought up by a few people over the last week at various meetings and such but it has been ignored. Thats no surprise though.

The nore I think about it, I recall when I was at a houseparty years ago. the cops showed up and were checking for minors. I didn't have my DL on me because the SoS tookit due to too many points (I didn't drive there either). The cop told me I need to have ID on me and I better go get a state ID card.
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Old May 4th, 2010, 09:02 PM   #42
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what I don't get is that when obama calls the arizona people nazi's it is ok. when someone calls the nazi's we're racist pigs.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 02:34 PM   #43
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what I don't get is that when obama calls the arizona people nazi's it is ok. when someone calls the nazi's we're racist pigs.
What I don't get is that Obama gets labeled as a nazi because he used a few quotes that a similar to something Hitler said, but when conservitives suggest actions similar to what the nazis did, like revoking the rights of certian ethnic groups, revoking citizens right to a fair trial, and requiring people to carry paperwork proving who they are it's OK.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 03:53 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
What I don't get is that Obama gets labeled as a nazi because he used a few quotes that a similar to something Hitler said, but when conservitives suggest actions similar to what the nazis did, like revoking the rights of certian ethnic groups, revoking citizens right to a fair trial, and requiring people to carry paperwork proving who they are it's OK.
What racial group has had there rights revoked?

What is soooo wrong with carrying some sort of ID?

I don't think making obvious similarities in the way Obama speaks, and his general Ideals, being like Hitlers is calling him a Nazi.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 05:31 PM   #45
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What racial group has had there rights revoked?

What is soooo wrong with carrying some sort of ID?

I don't think making obvious similarities in the way Obama speaks, and his general Ideals, being like Hitlers is calling him a Nazi.
If people here had thier way, Hispanics and Arabs to start with. Other would probably follow.

There is nothing wrong with carrying some sort of ID. Whats wrong is having a law requiring you to carry some sort of ID and allowing the police to stop people just to check thier ID and detain anyone that can't produce it.

and don't pretend to me nieve. The implications of those comparing Obama to Hitler are obvious. Besides, the person I was responding to used the word Nazi.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 05:38 PM   #46
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If people here had thier way, Hispanics and Arabs to start with. Other would probably follow.

There is nothing wrong with carrying some sort of ID. Whats wrong is having a law requiring you to carry some sort of ID and allowing the police to stop people just to check thier ID and detain anyone that can't produce it.

and don't pretend to me nieve. The implications of those comparing Obama to Hitler are obvious. Besides, the person I was responding to used the word Nazi.
This is already a law . I know people who have went to jail for not having ID on them . They where in jail till the cops could prove Who they were. This happened in MI.

In South Carolina You have to have your ID on You and at least 2 dollars on your person or You can go to jail for vagrancy.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 06:55 PM   #47
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This is already a law . I know people who have went to jail for not having ID on them . They where in jail till the cops could prove Who they were. This happened in MI.

In South Carolina You have to have your ID on You and at least 2 dollars on your person or You can go to jail for vagrancy.
Yes, and I think it's wrong. The 4th ammendment says that I don't have to show you my papers and you can't arrest my unless there is reason to believe I actually did something wrong.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 07:36 PM   #48
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If one has nothing to hide then there should be no reason to carry ID and to produce who you are and legal citizenship or legal residence of this country.
We do have a problem with immigration in this country and too many people are taking adventage of it. We need to protect ourselves and our citizens of this country from illegals coming here and using the system we have in place for us to their advantage without having to put into it as we do.
Some come here to start a better life for them and thier families, some are criminals coming here to commit crimes, serious crimes only to take advantage of any who get in thier way. Close the border to the south and only allow ones who are willing to go through the proper channels to get in.
It is illegal to be an illegal alien in this country, but some would think that seeing as they are here let em stay. Not
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Old May 5th, 2010, 07:42 PM   #49
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If one has nothing to hide then there should be no reason to carry ID and to produce who you are and legal citizenship or legal residence of this country.
We do have a problem with immigration in this country and too many people are taking adventage of it. We need to protect ourselves and our citizens of this country from illegals coming here and using the system we have in place for us to their advantage without having to put into it as we do.
Some come here to start a better life for them and thier families, some are criminals coming here to commit crimes, serious crimes only to take advantage of any who get in thier way. Close the border to the south and only allow ones who are willing to go through the proper channels to get in.
It is illegal to be an illegal alien in this country, but some would think that seeing as they are here let em stay. Not
What ?
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Old May 5th, 2010, 08:04 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
What I don't get is that Obama gets labeled as a nazi because he used a few quotes that a similar to something Hitler said, but when conservitives suggest actions similar to what the nazis did, like revoking the rights of certian ethnic groups, revoking citizens right to a fair trial, and requiring people to carry paperwork proving who they are it's OK.
Bruce,
I do not believe any ethnic groups are having rights revoked. Hispanics have just gotten set up big-time for profiling, however, I do not believe it is a right to live and work in the United States without citizenship or the proper documents (green card/work visa).

Being asked for identification is not against the law. The Arizona law was enacted because INS cannot do their job keeping our southern border secure; Arizona now has such elevated hispanic gang activity that it isn't safe to travel some places in daylight. Something has to be done and Arizona is tired of waiting for the federal government to do their job.

Like driving, living in the United States is a privilege (for aliens) - not a right. A driver's license is necessary proof you have been trained and tested in the rudimentary operation of a motor vehicle on public roads.

How would having to show a green card or work visa or valid ID be illegal?
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Old May 5th, 2010, 09:38 PM   #51
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Yes, and I think it's wrong. The 4th ammendment says that I don't have to show you my papers and you can't arrest my unless there is reason to believe I actually did something wrong.
Taken of Wikipedia reqarding the 4th amendment:

The government may not detain an individual even momentarily without reasonable and articulable suspicion, with a few exceptions.

Where society's need is great and no other effective means of meeting the need is available, and intrusion on people's privacy is minimal, checkpoints toward that end may briefly detain motorists. In Michigan v. Sitz 496 U.S. 444 (1990), the Supreme Court allowed discretionless sobriety checkpoints. In United States v. Martinez-Fuerte 428 U.S. 543 (1976), the Supreme Court allowed discretionless immigration checkpoints. In Delaware v. Prouse 440 U.S. 648 (1979), the Supreme Court allowed discretionless checkpoints for driver's licenses and registration. In Illinois v. Lidster 540 U.S. 419 (2004), the Supreme Court allowed focused informational checkpoints. However, discretionary checkpoints or general crime-fighting checkpoints are not allowed.[29]

Another exception is at borders and ports of entry.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 09:54 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
What I don't get is that Obama gets labeled as a nazi because he used a few quotes that a similar to something Hitler said, but when conservitives suggest actions similar to what the nazis did, like revoking the rights of certian ethnic groups, revoking citizens right to a fair trial, and requiring people to carry paperwork proving who they are it's OK.
did you happen to see what happend with the may day protest? illegals were carrying torches, vandalizing businesses and reeking all types of havoc screaming that they have rights. no you don't. you don't have the rights of an american citizen because you are not one.

they come here, fucking steal our tax dollars, rape our healthcare system, evade our tax system then bitch cause we want to kick them out.

to hell with them, I don't care if you are an arab, hispanic or some whitebread from canada gtfo.

the reason they can run wild here and not get caught is because our signs are in dual languages, loud speaker announcements are in multiple languages, drivers tests are given in multiple languages.

fuck all that.

I have a friend of the family who got transferred to france and is having a bastard of a time because she is unable to read or speak french. you may be able to skate by for a week there on vacation but to live day to day you have to be able to operate in their language.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 01:43 AM   #53
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More from a Wiki page:

Quote:
There is no federal law requiring that an individual identify herself during a Terry stop. Hiibel merely established that states and localities have the power to require people to identify themselves under those conditions.
As of 2009, the following 24 states have “stop and identify” laws:
Alabama Ala. Code §15-5-30
Arizona Ari. Rev. Stat. Tit. 13, §2412 (enacted 2005)
Arkansas Ark. Code Ann. §5-71-213(a)(1)
Colorado Colo. Rev. Stat. §16-3-101(1)
Delaware Del. Code Ann., Tit. 11, §§1902, 1321(6)
Florida Fla. Stat. §856.021(2)
Georgia Ga. Code Ann. §16-11-36(b) (loitering statute)
Illinois Ill. Comp. Stat., ch. 725, §5/107-14
Indiana Indiana Code §34-28-5-3.5
Kansas Kan. Stat. Ann. §22-2402(1)
Louisiana La. Code Crim. Proc. Ann., Art. 215.1(A)
Missouri Mo. Rev. Stat. §84.710(2)
Montana Mont. Code Ann. §46-5-401
Nebraska Neb. Rev. Stat. §29-829
Nevada Nev. Rev. Stat. §171.123
New Hampshire N. H. Rev. Stat. Ann. §594:2
New Mexico N. M. Stat. Ann. §30-22-3
New York N. Y. Crim. Proc. Law (CPL) §140.50 (1)
North Dakota N.D. Cent. Code §29-29-21 (PDF)
Ohio Ohio Rev. Code §2921.29 (enacted 2006)
Rhode Island R. I. Gen. Laws §12-7-1
Utah Utah Code Ann. §77-7-15
Vermont Vt. Stat. Ann., Tit. 24, §1983
Wisconsin Wis. Stat. §968.24

The opinion in Hiibel implied that, unless a specific local jurisdiction (city, town, county, township, etc.) has passed a “stop and identify” law, persons in states not listed above are not obligated to identify themselves when detained by police.[18] However, the issue may not be settled absent a definitive state-court holding that identification is not required


Quote:
As of January 2010, the validity of a law requiring that a person detained do anything more than state his name has not come before the U.S. Supreme Court.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_an...80.9D_statutes

Cliff notes:

There is not federal law requiring you to identify yourself.
About half of the states require you to identify yourself to police. Most allow the police to require you to identify yourself only if they suspect criminal activity, and verbally stating your name (and maybe address and birthdate) is all that is required.
The supreme court has never ruled on if you are required to show identification documents.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 02:22 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by ScOoTeR View Post
Bruce,
I do not believe any ethnic groups are having rights revoked. Hispanics have just gotten set up big-time for profiling, however, I do not believe it is a right to live and work in the United States without citizenship or the proper documents (green card/work visa).

Being asked for identification is not against the law. The Arizona law was enacted because INS cannot do their job keeping our southern border secure; Arizona now has such elevated hispanic gang activity that it isn't safe to travel some places in daylight. Something has to be done and Arizona is tired of waiting for the federal government to do their job.

Like driving, living in the United States is a privilege (for aliens) - not a right. A driver's license is necessary proof you have been trained and tested in the rudimentary operation of a motor vehicle on public roads.

How would having to show a green card or work visa or valid ID be illegal?
Yes, it is not against any law for the police to ask for ID. But it is also not illegal for a citizen to not have ID on them, and I would be very much opposed to changing that. It may be illegal for some non-citizens to not have ID on them I'm not sure. But even if it is we get into a real catch 22. If someone is asked for ID but doesn't have any, he has not broken any law if he's a citizen, but may have if he isn't, but how do you tell if he doesn't have ID. This is where the problems start. Most of us that look and sound American would probably have no problem, but I pity anyone that happens to look Hispanic or middle eastern (or any other ethnic group that happens to fall into disfavor). You now give the police license to stop and question anyone who happens to look like they may be from somewhere else, and to detain them if they don't have the correct paperwork on them. That sounds awfully "nazi-ish" to me.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 07:07 AM   #55
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Yes, it is not against any law for the police to ask for ID. But it is also not illegal for a citizen to not have ID on them, and I would be very much opposed to changing that. It may be illegal for some non-citizens to not have ID on them I'm not sure. But even if it is we get into a real catch 22. If someone is asked for ID but doesn't have any, he has not broken any law if he's a citizen, but may have if he isn't, but how do you tell if he doesn't have ID. This is where the problems start. Most of us that look and sound American would probably have no problem, but I pity anyone that happens to look Hispanic or middle eastern (or any other ethnic group that happens to fall into disfavor). You now give the police license to stop and question anyone who happens to look like they may be from somewhere else, and to detain them if they don't have the correct paperwork on them. That sounds awfully "nazi-ish" to me.
I completely agree with you, except for the outcome. Sounding "Nazi-ish" is often used for a negative comparison because of the nature of what would happen to Jews if they didn't have their "papers". i.e. In Nazi Germany in WWII - nien papieren - you get sent to the Nazi Deathcamps.

A law officer asking a minority for proof of citizenship in 2010 in America: Due process will still allow the person time to provide identification before any action is taken, i.e. a hispanic person that has legal documents to reside in the USA (whether it be green card, work visa or as a true citizen), will have a chance to prove their legality if they do not have them when "questioned".

Also, another thing that really gets me riled is how easy "Nazi" gets thrown around these days. The Nazi party was responsible for some of the most inhumane acts ever witnessed, at least in recent history.
DEPORTATION of ILLEGAL ALIENS without PROOF of a legal reason to reside in the USA DOES NOT EQUAL MASS GENOCIDE.

IMHO, It goes a long way in trivializing the atrocities that some members of the Nazi party committed.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 07:29 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ScOoTeR View Post

Also, another thing that really gets me riled is how easy "Nazi" gets thrown around these days. The Nazi party was responsible for some of the most inhumane acts ever witnessed, at least in recent history.
IMHO, It goes a long way in trivializing the atrocities that some members of the Nazi party committed.
agreed.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:18 AM   #57
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If people here had thier way, Hispanics and Arabs to start with. Other would probably follow.

So the answer to my question of who's rights have been revoked is NOBODY

There is nothing wrong with carrying some sort of ID. Whats wrong is having a law requiring you to carry some sort of ID and allowing the police to stop people just to check thier ID and detain anyone that can't produce it.

What would be the purpose of carrying an ID and not using it??? And how do you suggest verification of legal citizenship if you don't check IDs???? And if you don't have proof of citizenship and you just let go what point is there in any immigration law and or enforcing one?????

and don't pretend to me nieve. The implications of those comparing Obama to Hitler are obvious. Besides, the person I was responding to used the word Nazi.
The person you where responding to used the word Nazi twice, never with Obamas name, and also referring to liberals calling conservatives Nazis. Where did you see the Obama comparison, and again if the shoe fits, come on.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 11:02 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by ovrlnd View Post
did you happen to see what happend with the may day protest? illegals were carrying torches, vandalizing businesses and reeking all types of havoc screaming that they have rights. no you don't. you don't have the rights of an american citizen because you are not one.

they come here, fucking steal our tax dollars, rape our healthcare system, evade our tax system then bitch cause we want to kick them out.

to hell with them, I don't care if you are an arab, hispanic or some whitebread from canada gtfo.

the reason they can run wild here and not get caught is because our signs are in dual languages, loud speaker announcements are in multiple languages, drivers tests are given in multiple languages.

fuck all that.

I have a friend of the family who got transferred to france and is having a bastard of a time because she is unable to read or speak french. you may be able to skate by for a week there on vacation but to live day to day you have to be able to operate in their language.
I agree that illegal immigration is a problem. People committing crimes should be arrested, convicted, and if they are immigrants deported back to where they came from. Those here illegally, when found, should be deported.

I'm not sure where your going that you see road signs in multiple languages. I never see that except near borders with places that speak those languages and airports.

But what I am very much opposed to is making it a crime for me to leave my house without proper ID. That is a right I want to keep.

Quote:
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin
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Old May 6th, 2010, 11:27 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by ScOoTeR View Post
Also, another thing that really gets me riled is how easy "Nazi" gets thrown around these days. The Nazi party was responsible for some of the most inhumane acts ever witnessed, at least in recent history.
DEPORTATION of ILLEGAL ALIENS without PROOF of a legal reason to reside in the USA DOES NOT EQUAL MASS GENOCIDE.

IMHO, It goes a long way in trivializing the atrocities that some members of the Nazi party committed.
I agree, and feel the same way when people start comparing Obama to Hitler. And don't pretend to be naive like Mr. Toes. The implication is obvious.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 11:46 AM   #60
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I agree that illegal immigration is a problem. People committing crimes should be arrested, convicted, and if they are immigrants deported back to where they came from. Those here illegally, when found, should be deported.

I'm not sure where your going that you see road signs in multiple languages. I never see that except near borders with places that speak those languages and airports.

But what I am very much opposed to is making it a crime for me to leave my house without proper ID. That is a right I want to keep.
Laws are already in place, at least in Michigan... If stopped by a police officer and asked to produce identification you're required to have identification. If you don't they can and will detain you until such time as you can be properly identified...
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