Absolute TRUTH - Page 3 - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

Politics, Government, or Religion Chat Bring your flamesuit!

greatlakes4x4.com is the premier Great Lakes 4x4 Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 27th, 2008, 04:42 PM   #41
dodger889
Senior Member
 
dodger889's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-12-08
Location: north of ann arbor, mi
Posts: 1,109
iTrader: (8)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

I never said the the truth is absolute. The perception of the truth is what is changing. Ok to be an example they said that we could not make it into outer space, fly in the sky, and so forth 200 years ago. It was the truth then but now we know that is a false statment. Agreed ?? So in the one minor example the truth changed in time. Which means it also evolved with time. What people believe to is the truth has changed in time. So if we stop time then we can have absolute truth.
It will remain unchanged. So in another words we have no truths at all. discoveries keep changing the truth has known in the world even about the past. Yes there are somethings that have not changed yet. The only true thing is the now.
dodger889 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old August 27th, 2008, 05:16 PM   #42
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,686
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dodger889 View Post
I never said the the truth is absolute. The perception of the truth is what is changing. Ok to be an example they said that we could not make it into outer space, fly in the sky, and so forth 200 years ago. It was the truth then but now we know that is a false statment. Agreed ?? So in the one minor example the truth changed in time. Which means it also evolved with time. What people believe to is the truth has changed in time. So if we stop time then we can have absolute truth.
It will remain unchanged. So in another words we have no truths at all. discoveries keep changing the truth has known in the world even about the past. Yes there are somethings that have not changed yet. The only true thing is the now.
If I said that flying cars are impossible, they could not exist. That would not be a statement of absolute truth, it would be accurate and true to this day, and it would be a principle that I operate under. But absolute truth DOES exist eventhough reality may progressively change. After a good dinner, my weight will change, but not the truths of this universe. For example, the laws of gravity, thermodynamics, etc, those are set in stone. They are absolutely true. One hundred years from now, we will still have a gravitational pull and our universe will still move from complexity to simplicity. Same with one hundy after that. Some things are present reality, other things are permant truths. Another way to explain this is the difference between subjective and objective truths. Subjective truth is subject to change. Objective truth is not, it is outside of the subjective world, it is absolute.
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 27th, 2008, 06:25 PM   #43
dodger889
Senior Member
 
dodger889's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-12-08
Location: north of ann arbor, mi
Posts: 1,109
iTrader: (8)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
For example, the laws of gravity, thermodynamics, etc, those are set in stone. They are absolutely true.
These are still subject to change. As time goes by the theroies or laws have changed or better understood the pirncipals are still there but subject to as our knowledge grows. Yes hot to us isn't hot to others and so forth.
dodger889 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 27th, 2008, 06:38 PM   #44
87'YJ
Jeeps, Journey and Jesus
 
87'YJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: Columbus
Posts: 1,651
iTrader: (2)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dodger889 View Post
These are still subject to change. As time goes by the theroies or laws have changed or better understood the pirncipals are still there but subject to as our knowledge grows. Yes hot to us isn't hot to others and so forth.
What your refering to is the "names or ideas" that were assigned to these truths. For example, just because they said the world was flat 500 years ago, doesn't change the fact that the world is round. The TRUTH that the world was round was not changed by the discovery that the world wasn't flat.

The "principles" that you refer to in your above statement would be the truths i am speaking of. Since the beginning of time, gravity, or what we call gravity has existed. People have attributed it to many other things, or called it different things, or explained it differently and whether these people were right or wrong, gravity kept on existing as a law (or as a truth for our current discussion).

Scientific discoveries do not change truth. They just expose it. what we did not know before, we now know. And what we do not know now, we may or will know someday.

Last edited by 87'YJ; August 27th, 2008 at 06:52 PM.
87'YJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 27th, 2008, 06:53 PM   #45
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,460
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dodger889 View Post
These are still subject to change. As time goes by the theroies or laws have changed or better understood the pirncipals are still there but subject to as our knowledge grows. Yes hot to us isn't hot to others and so forth.
No, the laws a thermodynamics do not change based on our perception of "hot" or "not hot". And if further research leads us to new knowledge that changes what we believe to be the "absolute truth" then what we formerly believed to be an "absolute truth" was not a "truth" at all.

Last edited by brewmenn; August 27th, 2008 at 07:22 PM.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 27th, 2008, 10:33 PM   #46
dodger889
Senior Member
 
dodger889's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-12-08
Location: north of ann arbor, mi
Posts: 1,109
iTrader: (8)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 87'YJ View Post
What your refering to is the "names or ideas" that were assigned to these truths. For example, just because they said the world was flat 500 years ago, doesn't change the fact that the world is round. The TRUTH that the world was round was not changed by the discovery that the world wasn't flat.

The "principles" that you refer to in your above statement would be the truths i am speaking of. Since the beginning of time, gravity, or what we call gravity has existed. People have attributed it to many other things, or called it different things, or explained it differently and whether these people were right or wrong, gravity kept on existing as a law (or as a truth for our current discussion).

Scientific discoveries do not change truth. They just expose it. what we did not know before, we now know. And what we do not know now, we may or will know someday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
No, the laws a thermodynamics do not change based on our perception of "hot" or "not hot". And if further research leads us to new knowledge that changes what we believe to be the "absolute truth" then what we formerly believed to be an "absolute truth" was not a "truth" at all.
With that thank you, all for some inlightment about that. Now I see things alittle different than before. I will have to agree with those statments after conciderations. And for clearing up something for me.
That include Dave too.
dodger889 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 12:29 AM   #47
muddin_wolverine
Senior Member
 
muddin_wolverine's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-03-08
Location: FWB, Florida
Posts: 406
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
Humans have defined mathematics. Therefore, mathematics are not perfect.
i.e....
1=0 is possible
muddin_wolverine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 11:26 AM   #48
3-foot
Senior Member
 
3-foot's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-21-06
Location: Springfield Township, Mi
Posts: 1,111
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
1. It is? How sure are you?

2. Probably because you deny absolute truth.

3. Count me in. Loser converts. Party at your place?
1.) I wouldn't argue the point in court.

2.) I do believe(<---key word) there are absolute truths, I don't know that mankind has the ability to grasp them, necessarily. To know absolute truth is to know God's mind, I don't know if we have the mental capacity for something that large.

It's really the same conversation that always goes on (just substitute absolute truth in place of God)..... God is real, no he isn't, yes he is, no you're wrong, no you are. The conversation never goes anywhere because we believe what we believe and no one will change our minds. One can't see truth without facing the posibility that everything you know may be wrong. Few want to face that harsh of a reality. So each side tries to convince the other and nothing changes.

3.) Ok, but not if involves anyone's wang, then count me out. My money is on Dave.
3-foot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 12:05 PM   #49
87'YJ
Jeeps, Journey and Jesus
 
87'YJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: Columbus
Posts: 1,651
iTrader: (2)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3-foot View Post

2.) It's really the same conversation that always goes on (just substitute absolute truth in place of God)..... God is real, no he isn't, yes he is, no you're wrong, no you are. The conversation never goes anywhere because we believe what we believe and no one will change our minds. One can't see truth without facing the posibility that everything you know may be wrong. Few want to face that harsh of a reality. So each side tries to convince the other and nothing changes.
.
I agree with what you're saying, but whether or not people argue about it doesn't change the reality of its existence (truth that is). Just because people passionately believe something, doesn't mean they aren't passionately wrong!

People can argue about it till they are blue in the face, but in the end, someone is right (or no one). Truth will be exposed as it always has been through out time.
87'YJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 12:13 PM   #50
General Lee
Slice of Starsage Anyone?
 
General Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-09-05
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 5,070
iTrader: (7)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to General Lee
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3-foot View Post
3.) Ok, but not if involves anyone's wang, then count me out. My money is on Dave.
With a name like '3-foot' you're worried about someone ELSES wang???

Dang dude...Dave must be packin' some serious meat.
























This sig. line made possible by General Lee
General Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 01:37 PM   #51
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,686
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3-foot View Post
1.) I wouldn't argue the point in court.

2.) I do believe(<---key word) there are absolute truths, I don't know that mankind has the ability to grasp them, necessarily. To know absolute truth is to know God's mind, I don't know if we have the mental capacity for something that large.

It's really the same conversation that always goes on (just substitute absolute truth in place of God)..... God is real, no he isn't, yes he is, no you're wrong, no you are. The conversation never goes anywhere because we believe what we believe and no one will change our minds. One can't see truth without facing the posibility that everything you know may be wrong. Few want to face that harsh of a reality. So each side tries to convince the other and nothing changes.

3.) Ok, but not if involves anyone's wang, then count me out. My money is on Dave.
1. How sure are you about that?

2. Ok, not don't dismiss this too fast, but IF (note I said IF) God exists, the same God that is powerful enough to create the vast universe, this same God is powerful enough to make himself known. And IF this God exists, then we can look to his word (because God is powerful enough to have men pen his word), and we look to the word made flesh, Jesus Christ. So if we want to know what God the absolute thinks, then we should look to what he has said, both in written word, and in the written word made flesh who dwelt among us.

It usually goes without enough progress because guys jump in, then get scared, and jump out. Me = not skeered

3. Deal, waiting in your invitation, I will bring beer and wear a wife beater tshirt.
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 01:38 PM   #52
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,686
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by General Lee View Post
With a name like '3-foot' you're worried about someone ELSES wang???

Dang dude...Dave must be packin' some serious meat.

This sig. line made possible by General Lee


I wish I could sig quote, hahahah, that was great
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2008, 11:41 AM   #53
3-foot
Senior Member
 
3-foot's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-21-06
Location: Springfield Township, Mi
Posts: 1,111
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by General Lee View Post
With a name like '3-foot' you're worried about someone ELSES wang???

Dang dude...Dave must be packin' some serious meat.



Actually the name has to do with trying to climb Carb. Hill with only two feet, three pedals, a bad carb, and no lockers. I earned the name by having my passenger keep a foot on the gas to keep the engine from stalling while I worked the brake and clutch.

It didn't work I had to winch up. I got a new carb and lockers and now all is well, except I am forever branded 3-foot (3 feet didn't seem right).

Now carb hill is closed and I never had a chance to redeem myself.
3-foot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2008, 03:49 PM   #54
Monkeyevil
I <3 Miatas
 
Monkeyevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 8,987
iTrader: (16)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to Monkeyevil
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by muddin_wolverine View Post
i.e....
1=0 is possible
1 != 0
__________________
JcrOffroad
Zoom Zoom!
Monkeyevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 31st, 2008, 08:32 AM   #55
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,460
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyevil View Post
1 != 0
But 1! doesn't not =1
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 31st, 2008, 11:40 AM   #56
Monkeyevil
I <3 Miatas
 
Monkeyevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 8,987
iTrader: (16)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to Monkeyevil
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
But 1! doesn't not =1
.999 repeating ~= 1 as well

Science isn't about truths, it's about proving something to not be false to the best of your ability.

It is of our general opinion that 2 + 2 = 4; because we all follow the standards of mathematics. But in reality, what is 2? What is 4? Someone on some other planet may have 2 + 2 = 5. Does that mean they are wrong... no it means they believe in a different standard than us.

So I don't believe there is ANY absolute truth in this world.

Science continues to show me what an amazing world we live in, the structures of all life can be torn down into geometric patterns, micro evolution is amazing.

I have to believe in some kind of intelligent design. For me it's God, for you it may be someone else.
__________________
JcrOffroad
Zoom Zoom!
Monkeyevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 31st, 2008, 08:33 PM   #57
Dave Kerwin
web wheeling, hard.
 
Dave Kerwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-18-05
Location: SE MI
Posts: 6,686
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyevil View Post
I don't believe there is ANY absolute truth in this world.

I have to believe in some kind of intelligent design. For me it's God, for you it may be someone else.
And how sure are you about this absence of absolute truth?

So if my belief in intelligent design is gender-neutral liberal space aliens, does that make it true only on the grounds that I believe it? Can it be true in the same way that your faith in God (however you define that) is true?
Dave Kerwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 31st, 2008, 08:48 PM   #58
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,460
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyevil View Post
It is of our general opinion that 2 + 2 = 4; because we all follow the standards of mathematics. But in reality, what is 2? What is 4? Someone on some other planet may have 2 + 2 = 5. Does that mean they are wrong... no it means they believe in a different standard than us.

So I don't believe there is ANY absolute truth in this world.
No, we defined 2 and 4, as well as + and =, as so we can definitely say 2+2=4. If some from another planet has a different definition of "2" then it's not what we call "2" and the equation 2+2 would have to be translated into a common standard.

but if you have these .. and you put them with these .. you will end up this these ....

Regardless of what planet your on or what standard you use.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 31st, 2008, 09:00 PM   #59
Monkeyevil
I <3 Miatas
 
Monkeyevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 8,987
iTrader: (16)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to Monkeyevil
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
No, we defined 2 and 4, as well as + and =, as so we can definitely say 2+2=4. If some from another planet has a different definition of "2" then it's not what we call "2" and the equation 2+2 would have to be translated into a common standard.

but if you have these .. and you put them with these .. you will end up this these ....

Regardless of what planet your on or what standard you use.
What if someone believes that you have to use up something to combine two things. What if it takes 1 "." to add two together? Therefore ".." + ".." = "..."
__________________
JcrOffroad
Zoom Zoom!
Monkeyevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 31st, 2008, 09:22 PM   #60
Mr Toes - R.I.P.
November 7, 1958 - July 22, 2011
 
Mr Toes - R.I.P.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-29-07
Location: Belleville Mi
Posts: 4,727
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
No, we defined 2 and 4, as well as + and =, as so we can definitely say 2+2=4. If some from another planet has a different definition of "2" then it's not what we call "2" and the equation 2+2 would have to be translated into a common standard.

but if you have these .. and you put them with these .. you will end up this these ....

Regardless of what planet your on or what standard you use.
Wouldn't changing the standard change the definition?
Then 2+2 may not equal 4 because 2 dosen't equal what was defined, or standardized as 2.

No need to respond I was just bored and wanted to post something.
Mr Toes - R.I.P. is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:06 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Page generated in 0.35995 seconds with 80 queries