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Old August 26th, 2008, 07:20 AM   #81
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By whose compass?

Mine.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 07:39 AM   #82
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Mine.
Do you like toast...too?
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Old August 26th, 2008, 08:09 AM   #83
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Mr. Toes you're a genius. Seriously, that's got me thinking differently.

Yes, my grandfather "went to Florida" via a certain well established route, as did all my other grandparents and great grand parents for many generations. My parents are planning on "going to Florida" by that very same route. Now while I can not, with certainty know that any of them actually ended up in "Florida" and not, say, Nebraska, I can reasonably assume that they ended up somewhere (even if it was just as worm food) and it would logically follow that if I follow the same path that I too will end up in that same place.
Your actually heading in the right direction.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 08:22 AM   #84
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Do you like toast...too?
Not really, unless I have some really good jelly to put on it.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 08:47 AM   #85
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I think he was. Proof...

#1 Every Zimbie i ever saw in a movie looked weird. Abe Lincoln looked weird.

#2 everything I've read about zombies is that they die when shot in the head. Abe Lincoln died after getting shot in the head.

So Abe Linclon must have been a zombie.
I have never read such profound truth. Bruce, you're on to something here.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 09:13 AM   #86
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I'm still waiting for Jim's scientific justification for the Christian god over Zeus.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 09:45 AM   #87
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Expressing an opinion is not mocking. I am stating what I believe. But since it does not agree with your beliefs, there must be a nefarious intent behind it. At least that is the impression I get when you respond like this.
Pete, the intent of the questions was to look at the situations objectively, not subjectively. This is not about opinion as much as it is about analysis. You decided to avoid the complex nature of the situation, give some boyish crap answer, and act like the mystery was solved. I am not attacking you, I am giving you the opportunity to actually discuss it, not shove it off like you have. If you decide to, great.

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What I have done is give answers to your questions. You posted 3 questions for people to answer to see if something is valid. If I go only by my own experience dealing with devoutly religious people, these are the kinds of answers I will get. Oversimplified? Maybe, but why go to great lengths to explain something when I can cut through the BS and spin and get right to the point.
You didn't have a point, you scooted the issue. I have had plenty of these conversations as well. If you didn't find this discussion to be worth your time then you would have thrown your pennies in the pot. So lets hear some actual answers.

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Why should I be willing to "know" something that I consider nothing more than a bedtime story.
Because that willingness will grant you more knowledge than you have now. If all you have ever done is call something a fairytale instead of investigating it, you have done yourself a disservice.


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Talk about over simplifying. Everything that happens is because of god, blah, blah blah. In my mind you are making my argument for me. Sorry if you can not see that. It is late and I am done formulating coherent response for tonight.
You wanted to tell me how some tribes in distant places have a sense of morality. I did not over simplify, I AGREED WITH YOU. Then I gave reasons WHY I am in agreement with you through God's agreement with you.


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You may not, but there is a trend among believers to consistently point to that book for all of lifes answers. I can not and will not consider that valid response to anything. Sorry if that is an over simplification for you, but there it is in a nutshell.
For the big answers, you betcha. For answers on how to build a suspension on a jeep, no. The Bible is not the only source of knowledge, but I believe is to be the most authoritative source. This concept I am describing is known as sola scriptura.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 09:46 AM   #88
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I'm still waiting for Jim's scientific justification for the Christian god over Zeus.
I gave ya one, you missed it, silly sova.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 09:58 AM   #89
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I gave ya one, you missed it, silly sova.
no you didn't, because there isn't one. It would involve proof of the supernatural, which is something that we don't have.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 10:03 AM   #90
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no you didn't, because there isn't one. It would involve proof of the supernatural, which is something that we don't have.
Would the following be a fair summary of your argument?


1. Anything believable must be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

2. All things supernatural/spiritual cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

3. Therefore, all thing supernatural/spiritual are not believable.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 10:24 AM   #91
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Would the following be a fair summary of your argument?


1. Anything believable must be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

2. All things supernatural/spiritual cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

3. Therefore, all thing supernatural/spiritual are not believable.
add this: an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 10:27 AM   #92
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add this: an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence.
Go ahead and complete it for me then.

And do you apply this same argument to ALL aspects of life?
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Old August 26th, 2008, 10:41 AM   #93
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Go ahead and complete it for me then.

And do you apply this same argument to ALL aspects of life?
actually yes. I use "an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence" everyday. Why not use it to determine the believability of a religious claim? Use the same critical thinking skills you would with anyone else and apply them to religion.

Of course for you, Dave, the saying should go...

an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence or faith.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 11:31 AM   #94
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actually yes. I use "an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence" everyday. Why not use it to determine the believability of a religious claim? Use the same critical thinking skills you would with anyone else and apply them to religion.

Of course for you, Dave, the saying should go...

an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence or faith.
I never said I disagree with you, but for your own benefit, I won't create the argument the rest of the way for you, I was inviting you to finish it and/or redefine it so that we can analyze it. But you don't seem interested in going there. So do you want to go there?

You are wrong about the "or faith" bit. I don't support blind beliefs, I think if someone believes something, that there should be REASONS to do so. There are REASONS to believe in Jesus, and NOT to believe in any other god. So if you want to go with those three questions I posed, that Pete was too skeered to answer, then lets have at it.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 11:39 AM   #95
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"an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence" actually, for me, replaces your 3 lines.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 02:17 PM   #96
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.................................................. ................................. Ask these questions:
A. What is the claim(s)?
B. Who made the claim(s)?
C. Did the person/entity back the claim(s) up?

Maybe I misunderstood where you were going with this part of your post.

This is how I took it.

If I were to ask a religious person the 3 questions above I would get answers that eventually would take me back to the bible. Because, that is where the root of faith exists.

The claim, whatever it is will be found in the bible. Who made the claim will also be identified in the bible and the bible is used to back the claim.

How is that mocking?

Yes, I know there is a lot more to religion or faith than this simple statement, but in my opinion, the root of faith and religion is there, in the bible. At least from my lifelong exposure to most religions under the sun. Even in discussions with my wife regarding her religious beliefs it always goes back to the book.

I no longer feel the need to investigate religion or faith. I have a lifetime of experience with it. I was born and raised catholic. Baptism, communion, cathecism, alter boy and married in the church. I am not new to the teachings. Because of what I personally experienced, I chose to no longer believe. There is nothing you, or any other mortal can say that will cause me to reconsider faith. You may think that as a weak or wrong stance. I see it as being strong and standing on my own.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 02:41 PM   #97
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If I were to ask a religious person the 3 questions above I would get answers that eventually would take me back to the bible. Because, that is where the root of faith exists.
I do not believe that the book is the root of my faith. If that were true, then someone could spill coffee on it and I'd be lost forever. I'm not trying to be smart and reference any of my Bibles specifically, but more "the book" in a general sense.

Our pastor constantly stresses, and I agree, that the book is merely a carrier for the words of God. It is just the medium. Therefore, the root of my faith is God.

By the way, just throwing this out there, I was born and raised catholic, and I also underwent baptism, communion, and cathecism until I felt like hurling (unexplained, necessary memorization kills me). I stopped practicing my faith the day after my confirmation. I was athiest, diest, and I felt like I was being strong and standing on my own. I met some religious people and set out to disprove them all, but I realized that my footing wasn't that strong, and I wasn't actually looking at any facts (just citing the lack thereof...which doesn't really solve anything either way...).

So, I found my place with the denomination of non-denominational Christians.

You can do whatever you want, and it won't hurt me, I'm just saying that you can think you really know something...but have no clue what you are really talking about.



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Specific example of my frustration from past Confirmation tests:
"Our Father, who art in Heaven, Harrold be thy name. Thy Kingdom Kong...
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Old August 26th, 2008, 03:33 PM   #98
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"an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence" actually, for me, replaces your 3 lines.
I am glad it fits in your world, but not in the real world Mike. I don't understand your unwillingness to discuss this matter. Are you afraid or something?
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Old August 26th, 2008, 03:39 PM   #99
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Maybe I misunderstood where you were going with this part of your post.

This is how I took it.

If I were to ask a religious person the 3 questions above I would get answers that eventually would take me back to the bible. Because, that is where the root of faith exists.

The claim, whatever it is will be found in the bible. Who made the claim will also be identified in the bible and the bible is used to back the claim.

How is that mocking?

Yes, I know there is a lot more to religion or faith than this simple statement, but in my opinion, the root of faith and religion is there, in the bible. At least from my lifelong exposure to most religions under the sun. Even in discussions with my wife regarding her religious beliefs it always goes back to the book.

I no longer feel the need to investigate religion or faith. I have a lifetime of experience with it. I was born and raised catholic. Baptism, communion, cathecism, alter boy and married in the church. I am not new to the teachings. Because of what I personally experienced, I chose to no longer believe. There is nothing you, or any other mortal can say that will cause me to reconsider faith. You may think that as a weak or wrong stance. I see it as being strong and standing on my own.
Jesus Christ of Nazareth, son of Joseph, he made the claims.

He claimed to be the Messiah they were all waiting for that would save the world of its sin. He claimed to be one with God, the only way to heaven.

He performed miracles (raising the dead, bringing sight to the blind, healing illnesses and leoporacy, walked through walls, and far more importantly, came back from the grave himself). It was well known the uproar that he created by challenging the religious dudes of the day who were total hypocrites. The only reason they even payed attention to him is because OF his miracles, otherwise they would not have wanted his life. The mass conversions following his resurrection points to its validity. Do you have a mind to analyze this stuff or do you write it off because you were not there to see it yourself?
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Old August 26th, 2008, 03:59 PM   #100
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I am glad it fits in your world, but not in the real world Mike. I don't understand your unwillingness to discuss this matter. Are you afraid or something?
really? I think it fits great in the REAL WORLD, from hydrogen generators and perpetual motion machines to spirits, demons, and ghosts. I'm not afraid of religion. Unwillingness to discuss what?
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