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Old August 25th, 2008, 12:55 PM   #41
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No, the world could be some other shape that is neither round nor flat, like a cube. Just because one group claims "A" and another claims "B" does not mean that one of those answers has to be right. They both could be wrong, or both partially correct with the actual truth being somewhere in the middle, or something that no one has thought of yet.
I am fully aware that there can be a large number of options to choose from, but the number of options does not mean that there is no such thing as truth in our world.

If you wanted to travel to Florida from your house and you think that a western voyage is going to get you there, then I got news for you, you're wrong. It doesn't matter if someone else says you can get to Florida by traveling west, nor does it matter if you are currently traveling west THINKING that you will one day arrive. What matters is if westbound travel will actually hit Florida.

The bottom line is that with faith, there are many options, but the options in and of themselves do NOT limit our ability to make a decision about truth. Truth exists in our world, and it can be known.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 01:03 PM   #42
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you can no more prove your God than a Greek could prove Zeus. So... what makes your God real and their's false?
Simple, there is no proof of Zeus, but there is an overwhelming amount of proof for Jesus Christ, both in physical existance and spiritual authority.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 01:15 PM   #43
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A piece of paper cut into a circle is both round and flat.
you missed the point dude
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Old August 25th, 2008, 01:15 PM   #44
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really?
Mike. Really? I'd expect more from you, of all people.

So, I said that the evidence presented is not just physical geology, specifically places, and you copy an earlier quote and bold where I mention places (and not even give regard to the "People existed" right after it).

Because I said there is evidence of MORE THAN places, does not mean that it is incorrect of me to say that, among other things, places also exist.

If I said Mickey Mouse has more than a head, and then I said Mickey Mouse has a head, would you bold that second line as well?

Sometimes I get so proud of you...and then I'm left with this feeling of being let down...
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Old August 25th, 2008, 01:57 PM   #45
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I haven't seen Die Hard, but, if someone dug through the rubble in the future, would there be evidences that the fictional events that occurred in the movie actually happened?
No, and that is the obvious difference. Sova's point is void.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 02:01 PM   #46
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we have talked about faith issues. when she gets older I will take her to experience all forms of worship so she can get a first hand grasp on them and let her decide what she would like to believe in.

this always ends up as an argument between these people and I. in the end I always say "you keep telling me of the kindness and respect that your church teaches, yet you still have no respect for what I believe. seems kinda false and hypocritical to me?"
You will take her see the Muslims in action too? What about so those who worship Satan?

If what you believed in was false, do you expect to be respected? What if you believed in smurf aliens who abduct us to sexually molest us? Would you want to be respected for that belief if you had it?
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Old August 25th, 2008, 02:03 PM   #47
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Simple, there is no proof of Zeus, but there is an overwhelming amount of proof for Jesus Christ, both in physical existance and spiritual authority.
"everything we know today as being true will one day be proven false.
people once thought the earth to be flat. it was accepted scientific fact."
-bob dylan


the only way to prove anything about jesus, the dinosaur's or anything else predating accurate recorded history is to travel back in time. how do we know that the tyranasaurus rex wasn't rainbow colored? you have no idea if it was all fiction created as a joke. if you want to believe in something that much your perception of the facts will be that it cannot be disproven. there is nothing wrong with this so long as it is accepted that it is your ideal of belief and not suitable for everyone.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 02:15 PM   #48
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"everything we know today as being true will one day be proven false.
people once thought the earth to be flat. it was accepted scientific fact."
-bob dylan


the only way to prove anything about jesus, the dinosaur's or anything else predating accurate recorded history is to travel back in time. how do we know that the tyranasaurus rex wasn't rainbow colored? you have no idea if it was all fiction created as a joke. if you want to believe in something that much your perception of the facts will be that it cannot be disproven. there is nothing wrong with this so long as it is accepted that it is your ideal of belief and not suitable for everyone.
"everything we know today as being true will one day be proven false"

This from Bob Dylan, who we know isn't a singer. LOL
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Old August 25th, 2008, 02:34 PM   #49
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Mike. Really? I'd expect more from you, of all people.

So, I said that the evidence presented is not just physical geology, specifically places, and you copy an earlier quote and bold where I mention places (and not even give regard to the "People existed" right after it).

Because I said there is evidence of MORE THAN places, does not mean that it is incorrect of me to say that, among other things, places also exist.

If I said Mickey Mouse has more than a head, and then I said Mickey Mouse has a head, would you bold that second line as well?

Sometimes I get so proud of you...and then I'm left with this feeling of being let down...
sorry to disappoint you. Jesus may have lived and done good things. great. I've seen no reason to worship him. I've never seen a miracle or any evidence for anything supernatural. All I've heard are claims of faith and I still haven't heard a good reason to have faith in anything supernatural...

"Faith is believin' what you know ain't so."
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Old August 25th, 2008, 02:47 PM   #50
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"everything we know today as being true will one day be proven false.
people once thought the earth to be flat. it was accepted scientific fact."
-bob dylan
#1. Bob Dylan? Really? I'm glad it was you this time, because I don't expect as much out of you as Sova (no offence meant, of course).

#2. Your pitiful choice of references aside, you are trying to say that what is considered accepted scientific fact today, will be disproven tomorrow...Well, you're also saying that there is no scientific proof of the mericles Jesus...therefore this argument seems pretty void to me.



"insert witty quote here"
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Old August 25th, 2008, 02:52 PM   #51
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I am fully aware that there can be a large number of options to choose from, but the number of options does not mean that there is no such thing as truth in our world.

If you wanted to travel to Florida from your house and you think that a western voyage is going to get you there, then I got news for you, you're wrong. It doesn't matter if someone else says you can get to Florida by traveling west, nor does it matter if you are currently traveling west THINKING that you will one day arrive. What matters is if westbound travel will actually hit Florida.

The bottom line is that with faith, there are many options, but the options in and of themselves do NOT limit our ability to make a decision about truth. Truth exists in our world, and it can be known.
But if I asked what route to take to Florida you might tell me to take I75 south. However someone else might tell me that for one reason or another, a different route would be better. All routes that ultimately result in me getting to Florida would be considered "truth".

Likewise, if I asked you how to get to heaven you would certainly tell me to follow Jesus and he will show me the way and that I should use the Bible as my road map. You might also show me Biblical verses that indicated that that was the ONLY way to get to heaven. And yet, if I asked a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Buddhist or a follower of another religion how to get to heaven they will tell me to follow a different path and use a different road map, and the atheists will tell me I canít go there because itís a fictional place. And unlike going to Florida, I know of no one that has gone to heaven that came back to tell us that the route they took was the correct one.

Which is the truth, and how can it be known?

And somewhere thereís an old English teacher of mine spinning in his grave over my habit of starting sentences with prepositions.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 03:00 PM   #52
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"Faith is believin' what you know ain't so."
no.

Faith is believing what you hope is true.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 03:09 PM   #53
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the only way to prove anything about jesus, the dinosaur's or anything else predating accurate recorded history is to travel back in time. how do we know that the tyranasaurus rex wasn't rainbow colored? you have no idea if it was all fiction created as a joke. if you want to believe in something that much your perception of the facts will be that it cannot be disproven. there is nothing wrong with this so long as it is accepted that it is your ideal of belief and not suitable for everyone.
Prove Abraham Lincoln wasn't a zombie.

Friend, there comes a time when we HAVE to accept personal testimony of the people of the day, THEN make logical conclusions to operate inside of.

If we do not do those two things, then we have no such thing as reality. At this moment in time you are sitting on something to support you so you may use the computer. Before sitting down, you did not take a careful analysis to determine if it would hold you up. Instead you accepted a logical conclusion that it held you before, and that most chairs hold people up, and bingo, you were fine. There is a degree of trust between you and your chair, the same way there is a degree of trust between us and historians of the past. There are indeed reasons to deny certain testimonies and there are indeed reasons not to sit in certain chairs.

So instead of playing games, how about we discuss WHEN to accept testimony, and when NOT to, instead of throwing the historical baby out with the bathwater. Agreed?
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Old August 25th, 2008, 03:14 PM   #54
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no.

Faith is believing what you hope is true.
well, you go ahead argue with Mark Twain...
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Old August 25th, 2008, 03:17 PM   #55
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you missed the point dude
I am pretty sure that I understood your point (which is why I made the comment), but you obviously did not understand mine.


It is all about perception and semantics.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 03:18 PM   #56
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Prove Abraham Lincoln wasn't a zombie.
I think he was. Proof...

#1 Every Zimbie i ever saw in a movie looked weird. Abe Lincoln looked weird.

#2 everything I've read about zombies is that they die when shot in the head. Abe Lincoln died after getting shot in the head.

So Abe Linclon must have been a zombie.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 03:19 PM   #57
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well, you go ahead argue with Mark Twain...
I wish I could. That'd be awesome.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 03:25 PM   #58
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You will take her see the Muslims in action too? What about so those who worship Satan?

If what you believed in was false, do you expect to be respected? What if you believed in smurf aliens who abduct us to sexually molest us? Would you want to be respected for that belief if you had it?
If she is interested in it, yes. I believe people should worship whatever they want, not inbred into the mainstream of christianity because that's all they've known and been told to believe.

if someone feels that satan is an actual deity and the think he exists, by all means worship him if you feel so inclined. it is your free right to worship what you want. just because your religion states satan is evil doesn't apply to the satan worshiper because he believes something else.

Am I worried she will believe in alien smurfs? no.

I am not attacking you for your beliefs dave you are allowed to believe what you wish. I am not going to try and dissuade you in any way. I simply don't care. does that mean we cannot be friends? that depends if you can hang with the fact I hold no loyalty to your preferred deity.

so why do my christian neighbors feel I am a demon and must convert me?

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Prove Abraham Lincoln wasn't a zombie.

Friend, there comes a time when we HAVE to accept personal testimony of the people of the day, THEN make logical conclusions to operate inside of.

If we do not do those two things, then we have no such thing as reality. At this moment in time you are sitting on something to support you so you may use the computer. Before sitting down, you did not take a careful analysis to determine if it would hold you up. Instead you accepted a logical conclusion that it held you before, and that most chairs hold people up, and bingo, you were fine. There is a degree of trust between you and your chair, the same way there is a degree of trust between us and historians of the past. There are indeed reasons to deny certain testimonies and there are indeed reasons not to sit in certain chairs.

So instead of playing games, how about we discuss WHEN to accept testimony, and when NOT to, instead of throwing the historical baby out with the bathwater. Agreed?
again. are you trying to convince me there was a jesus, god, immaculate conception, noahs ark and that christianity is the be all in the end all?
if yes, I respect you feel that way. I however feel different I am under no law that says i must tell you, my wife or anyone else what my belief is.


THE PROBLEM IS THAT PEOPLE TAKE THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS AND TREAT THEM AS FACT. THEY ARE NOT.

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Old August 25th, 2008, 03:31 PM   #59
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1. But if I asked what route to take to Florida you might tell me to take I75 south. However someone else might tell me that for one reason or another, a different route would be better. All routes that ultimately result in me getting to Florida would be considered "truth".

2. Likewise, if I asked you how to get to heaven you would certainly tell me to follow Jesus and he will show me the way and that I should use the Bible as my road map. You might also show me Biblical verses that indicated that that was the ONLY way to get to heaven. And yet, if I asked a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Buddhist or a follower of another religion how to get to heaven they will tell me to follow a different path and use a different road map, and the atheists will tell me I canít go there because itís a fictional place. And unlike going to Florida, I know of no one that has gone to heaven that came back to tell us that the route they took was the correct one.

Which is the truth, and how can it be known?

And somewhere thereís an old English teacher of mine spinning in his grave over my habit of starting sentences with prepositions.
1. Sure, there are many roads to Florida, but not a westbound one. That was my point. There is no eastbound way, or northern way either. You have to head south, and anyone not heading south is not getting to Florida. In other words, there is right, and there is wrong. There is directional accuracy and directional inaccuracy. There is true, and there is false. If there is true AND false, then we need to determine what is true, which stands out from what is false.

2. To clarify, I would not tell you that Jesus would show you the way, I would tell you that HE, in and of himself, IS THE WAY, through faith in him. I know that was not your exact point, but just wanted to clarify. You did nail the question though, which is this: Can it be determined that one is true and others are false?

The answer to your question is yes. Ask these questions:
A. What is the claim(s)?
B. Who made the claim(s)?
C. Did the person/entity back the claim(s) up?
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Old August 25th, 2008, 03:31 PM   #60
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If we do not do those two things, then we have no such thing as reality. At this moment in time you are sitting on something to support you so you may use the computer. Before sitting down, you did not take a careful analysis to determine if it would hold you up. Instead you accepted a logical conclusion that it held you before, and that most chairs hold people up, and bingo, you were fine. There is a degree of trust between you and your chair, the same way there is a degree of trust between us and historians of the past. There are indeed reasons to deny certain testimonies and there are indeed reasons not to sit in certain chairs.
You also have to trust that your co-workers didn't stick an effin' air horn under said chair before you sat down.
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