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Old August 22nd, 2008, 05:32 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
From what I've learned about Christianity, if a Christian "claims to be better in their..." they are already a hypocrite. Christians shouldn't "claim to be better", Christians are the same as everyone else except that they have accepted Jesus as their savior and believe he has "won them a place in heaven". While they should strive to live "Christian like" lives, they shouldn't claim to do it better than a non-believer.

If they claim to be better but don't live up to it shame on them. If they make no such claim but don't live up to what you think a Christian should be shame on you.

And I wouldn't write off the entire religion because some are hypocrites, I know some Christians do quite a good job of living up to the Christian standard. I know you know some too. Sure, no ones perfect, but that too is part of the Christian lesson, no mere human can ever achieve perfection except through Jesus Christ.

You are correct.

My post was mostly in line with the conversation here in this thread.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 06:54 AM   #82
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If you don't use the bible as a guide line what do you use?
yes, as previously stated, from within myself. I know what's right and wrong and I sure as hell wouldn't use the bible as a guide book. There are a few nuggets of good things, but there are bad things as well, which toes may subscribe to: misogyny, slavery, racism, etc.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 07:30 AM   #83
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yes, as previously stated, from within myself. I know what's right and wrong and I sure as hell wouldn't use the bible as a guide book. There are a few nuggets of good things, but there are bad things as well, which toes may subscribe to: misogyny, slavery, racism, etc.
I'm not comfortable using Mike Sova as my guideline for morality, for the simple fact his knowing whats right and wrong from within will not line up with my knowing whats right or wrong, and that won't line up with some one elese and soon you have nothing.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 07:45 AM   #84
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by the looks of this thread disbelief in god is as much a religion as belief
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 08:38 AM   #85
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by the looks of this thread disbelief in god is as much a religion as belief
untrue, atheism has no dogma. just one thing, not believing in a god because of a lack of evidence. I don't see why you made this statement except to try and show that atheists are "just as bad"...
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 09:35 AM   #86
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I'm not comfortable using Mike Sova as my guideline for morality, for the simple fact his knowing whats right and wrong from within will not line up with my knowing whats right or wrong, and that won't line up with some one elese and soon you have nothing.
Not comfortable with people thinking for themselves? Not comfortable with people deciding for themselves whats right and wrong? So you think that rather than having people decide for them selves whats right or wrong that there need to be a central common document telling them how to live their lives? So you should agree with 84Scrambler that the primary purpose of religion is to control the masses.

I go back to my original comment, people like you scare me. The only reason I can figure why you do not trust people to use their "inner thought" as their moral guideline is that your "inner thoughts" must not be very moral, so you feel the need to use an external source as your "moral guidebook", and think everyone else should also.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 09:38 AM   #87
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You are correct.

My post was mostly in line with the conversation here in this thread.
And while many of the Christians I know are very moral people, I will agree with you that some of the most immoral people I know also claimed to be Christians.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 05:00 PM   #88
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pyramid scheme I tell ya

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Old August 23rd, 2008, 07:13 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
Not comfortable with people thinking for themselves? Not comfortable with people deciding for themselves whats right and wrong? So you think that rather than having people decide for them selves whats right or wrong that there need to be a central common document telling them how to live their lives? So you should agree with 84Scrambler that the primary purpose of religion is to control the masses.

I go back to my original comment, people like you scare me. The only reason I can figure why you do not trust people to use their "inner thought" as their moral guideline is that your "inner thoughts" must not be very moral, so you feel the need to use an external source as your "moral guidebook", and think everyone else should also.
Who makes this determination?
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 07:30 PM   #90
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pyramid scheme I tell ya


I remeber that cute little kitty avitar you use to have.
I always thought this would be an improvement to the picture and show one of the uses for cats.



Thats just so funny isn't it.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 10:32 PM   #91
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I remeber that cute little kitty avitar you use to have.
I always thought this would be an improvement to the picture and show one of the uses for cats.



Thats just so funny isn't it.
I don't know about funny, but its not bothersome. Cats/dogs are eaten all over the world. Who cares.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 01:43 AM   #92
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Who makes this determination?
You did. Because rather than trust your own "inner thoughts" about morality, you chose to go with those from an ancient book.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 01:34 PM   #93
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You did. Because rather than trust your own "inner thoughts" about morality, you chose to go with those from an ancient book.
OK we have a little confusion here.

You made the statement that my inner thoughts must not be very moral, my question is who decides if my inner thoughts are moral.

The answer isn't you didn't trust your inner thoughts and chose to go with an ancient book, the ancient book may not reflect my inner thoughts.

You said my inner thoughts where not moral, who makes that decision??
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Old August 24th, 2008, 01:45 PM   #94
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I don't know about funny, but its not bothersome. Cats/dogs are eaten all over the world. Who cares.
Not me.
I don't really care about bullfighting, cock fighting or dog fighting either. The video on The Pub with the guy kicking the shit out of his stupid dogs was a scream.
It wasn't bothersome to me so it's OK.

The point I was trying to make is not everbody has an inner self that you or I might see as moral, so who or what makes something right or wrong.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 10:00 PM   #95
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OK we have a little confusion here.

You made the statement that my inner thoughts must not be very moral, my question is who decides if my inner thoughts are moral.

The answer isn't you didn't trust your inner thoughts and chose to go with an ancient book, the ancient book may not reflect my inner thoughts.

You said my inner thoughts where not moral, who makes that decision??
No, I did not say that I think that your inner thoughts are not moral. I have no way of knowing other peoples inner thought, neither do you.

What I said was that if you do not think that people can be trusted to use their inner thought as the basis for making their own decisions on morality, you must feel that other people can not decide what is moral or immoral based on inner though, and perhaps the reason for this is that you yourself can not decide what is moral or immoral based on inner though. I don't know what you would consider moral or immoral, but in the context of my comment you are the one making the determination, not me.

But probably what you're look for me to say is the ultimately it's the society in which one lives that decides whats moral or immoral, and in the society in which most of us live that moral code is based on Christian beliefs as spelled out in the Bible, so by golly we had all better follow that moral code and quit trying to think for ourselves, thus proving 84Scramble correct that the ultimate goal of religion is to control the masses.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 11:46 PM   #96
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No, I did not say that I think that your inner thoughts are not moral. I have no way of knowing other peoples inner thought, neither do you.

What I said was that if you do not think that people can be trusted to use their inner thought as the basis for making their own decisions on morality, you must feel that other people can not decide what is moral or immoral based on inner though, and perhaps the reason for this is that you yourself can not decide what is moral or immoral based on inner though. I don't know what you would consider moral or immoral, but in the context of my comment you are the one making the determination, not me.

But probably what you're look for me to say is the ultimately it's the society in which one lives that decides whats moral or immoral, and in the society in which most of us live that moral code is based on Christian beliefs as spelled out in the Bible, so by golly we had all better follow that moral code and quit trying to think for ourselves, thus proving 84Scramble correct that the ultimate goal of religion is to control the masses.
You are laying this out for him correctly, he's just not getting it. TOES; What he's saying is that you have made the statement that leaving people to decide for themselves what's moral or immoral, trusting their "inner voice" is scary. The only "inner voice" you're accustomed to is YOUR OWN. So your saying that leaving people to that is scary, leads us to believe that you're having some immoral thoughts that make you feel some "higher power" needs to keep your ass in check. Don't worry though, we all have immoral thoughts, it's human nature. The "inner voice" should just tell you which ones are innapropriate, and better kept to yourself. Same old story, I saw a smokin hot 16 year old yesterday. There's no question I considered her smokin hot, she was, but I in no way acted on it, it's immoral. Religion tells you it's a sin to even think it, which is bullshit. You're not good or bad based on your thoughts, you're good or bad based on your actions.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 08:05 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by smasheromalley View Post
by the looks of this thread disbelief in god is as much a religion as belief
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untrue.
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We've converted one!!


Good goin' Uncle Ben!!!
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Old August 25th, 2008, 08:37 AM   #98
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Heres my confusion.

Set religion aside, I see the same 16 year old as MISHOWJEEPER and I act on my desires, he claims it to be immoral, BUT my inner moral compass says its OK for me to do. Now what?
There are people that steal, cheat, kill, and a host of other things that I might think is wrong, but they don't think they are doing anything wrong, their inner voice say's it's Ok, SO IS IT??


Also BREWMAN you did say "your "inner thoughts" must not be very moral" exactly.
Then you said "No, I did not say that I think that your inner thoughts are not moral. I have no way of knowing other peoples inner thought, neither do you"
Thats kinda the point, we don't know what other people think, and we all have different ideas as to what is moral.


Also to be quite frank I do need some guidence, there are things that I could, would, and have done, that my inner voice say's is fine, but society, and christianity say are not, so that keeps me in check. Lucky for the rest of you.. lol
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Old August 25th, 2008, 10:19 AM   #99
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Also BREWMAN you did say "your "inner thoughts" must not be very moral" exactly.
Then you said "No, I did not say that I think that your inner thoughts are not moral. I have no way of knowing other peoples inner thought, neither do you"
Thats kinda the point, we don't know what other people think, and we all have different ideas as to what is moral.
Yes, you are correct, I did use those words, but they were part of a longer sentence...


Quote:
The only reason I can figure why you do not trust people to use their "inner thought" as their moral guideline is that your "inner thoughts" must not be very moral, so you feel the need to use an external source as your "moral guidebook", and think everyone else should also.
I know thatís a pretty long sentence and may not be grammatically correct, but to understand what I was getting at would require you to read and understand the entire sentence, not just one phrase.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 10:59 AM   #100
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Yes, you are correct, I did use those words, but they were part of a longer sentence...




I know thatís a pretty long sentence and may not be grammatically correct, but to understand what I was getting at would require you to read and understand the entire sentence, not just one phrase.
Not to go off on a tangent but your entire sentence describes a conclusion you have come to," The only reason I can figure".
What is the only reason?"your "inner thoughts" must not be very moral".
The "so you feel" conclusion should have been a new sentence as it has nothing to do with "The only reason I can figure" part, and is describing a different action.
I get what you meant, I read the parts between the lines,lol.


What about the rest of the post, re different people, different moral value.
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