so i was pm,d about the poker run we are doing yesterday buy the national forest park ranger. i just got off the phone with him. he wants me to get a permit and pay 75.00 dollars,also i must have liability insurance for the ride. the law states ( this is out of his mouth ) that 75 or more people in a gathering must have a permit for any event. i told him this is not an organized event that it is a trail ride. he told me it is an event...so if i dont do these things anyone in the area will be issued a ticket. they will be there looking for any thing they do not like and will be giving tickets out.. my right to drive my vehicle that is street legal through a trail i guess does not matter. should i still do this event and apply for all this? or should i just cancel it and not put myself into a situation for further problums. he basicly made it very clear he is trying to make it imposible for me to do this trail ride..... please keep the bullshit out of this thread. this is a serious matter this is affecting all of our rights 2 drive a 2 track.
75 people. i was thinking that but do you really want to get pulled over all day and have your rig gone over with a fine comb.....not me, mine is a little big. i am 90% sure i am going to cancel this.
IMO it sounds like something I would tell him we can fight i court.... if I could afford it.
It is not an organized event, You stated before you were not charging either - unless that changed. If you were broken off into groups they would have to prove all the groups are 'together' I would imagine to be able to cite you for that. They cannot give everyone in the area a ticket just for being in the area.
Save all your PM's.
BTW Ranger Les if you read this -- YOU are the reason Michigan is LOSING tourism (and its associated $$), and losing status as a RECREATION state.
Can you PM me his/her name and location.............I will make a phone call to the an aquaintenance who happens to work for the DNR in their Legal department, (with a very high rank). This may be a case of harrassment.
i will pay the money. it is just a bunch of crap that we cant get together and do a trail ride without problums. the owner of rivercity inn's liability insurance will cover the insurance issue. i just dont know if it is worth it.
i agree, if tis a matter of being stopped all the time and being quetsioned, then i'll leave my rig on the trailer and hit the trails in my DD explorer (stock). Then theirs nothing that they can do if i'm in a small group
I don't want to hijack a thread or start a whole different rant, but the statement from liv2mx bothers me. If there are Nat'l Forest Rangers and Michigan DNR officers "sleeping" on the site and reading our posts, especially when we ask the legality of an event or a place to use our ORV's, why aren't the Officers responding to our requests?
My friends and I (and everyone on this forum) spend an incredible amount of time researching areas where we would like to camp, fish, hunt, and use our ORV's in a legal matter. Though, when questions are posted, we (the forum users) go back and forth guessing what is legal and not legal. More often than not, because of "guessing the legal and correct answer", I end up not taking Jeep camping, or sometimes even going camping.
Though, from what liv2mx states, rather than posting the "legal and correct answers" from the actual law enforcement officers in a thread, a private message is sent notifying only one person. In the end, the rest of the community still does not know the correct answer.
Sorry for the rant, but what liv2mx posted above really annoys me.
check his IP, he might be part of the sleeper cell.
Liv2mx, this is way out of line on the part of the ranger. did he cite a specific law other than saying all gathering over 75 persons must have a permit? would it change things if you just broke everyone up into groups of like 4-5 vehicles. I have a hard time believing that everyone in the area would get ticketed, since it is public property and there are going to be swarms of people out and about getting ready for bow season.
For what it's worth:
Anyone that puts together one of these 'trail rides' and gets a ticket for doing so, as long as you were not doing something stupid, and decides to fight the ticket in court. I will be the first to contribute to a 'legal defence fund' to help cover attorney fee's.
i said i was going to call my attorney and see what right he has to do this that it all sounded like a very grey area. i said so your telling me if there is groups of us driving on the 2 track, you are going to stop us and give us tickets for not having an event license??? he said yes you will get a ticket.
I am also getting tired of the thought that these people are spying on here, but when it comes time that a question about legality is asked they can never seem to step in and clarify the rules. It seems like they want us to do bad and then get caught.
Do not cancel it. That is why they make all the rules is to try to make it a pain and scare people away from doing things like this. Then they can shut the trails and such down because nobody uses them anymore. I understand some rules are needed but it is pitiful when you have to drive hours to do any off roading at all. If you have the insurance thing covered I would go ahead and do it by the books just to prove that they are not going to stop people from using the state land that they deserve to use.
I am not going on the trail ride but I think it is bogus that Officer Russell isn't willing to explain to all of us what the law states.
If you are reading Officer Russell, please post link or state the specific law that requires the permit.
BTW, LIV2MX, Do you know how many people were planning on attending? Do not post the exact amount but if it works out, you should charge $10 for the camping, and maybe $5 per person to cover the [gay]permit[/gay].
That is unless you decide to cancel.
But as I said, I was not planning on going to take my suggestion as you will.
It is not, the amount of vehicles/people, as much as the fact that there are trails being marked in the forest, and mostly Money being exchanged. This by law constitutes an "Event". That is why there is an issue.
I would have no problem with a DNR, US Forrestry Officer, Longarm, or any other person who upholds the law being on the site. But post information. Don't just read and PM somebody saying "You are going to get fined if you do that."
I contacted this ranger, and He, had already contacted a member of GLFWDA for his area, It sounds like he wants to work with us, but there are rules he has to follow by the time line of the Poker Run.
If the GLFWDA member would like to step in, I will let him comment..........I was not privey to his conversation, so I don't want to start any hear say.
I will state, that the officer does want to work this out, and keep his district Properly maintained.
Arron Pm me your phone number, and I can talk to you more about it.
you can reach me at 231 869 5359. until 6.30 then 231 425 7482. i can handle it, i just dont want to be harrased the whole time i am on the trail. or pull onto a road and get pulled over for a muddy truck.
there is no trails being marked and there is no money except for the camping. i have stated in the thread many times that this is free. only charge is to the owner of river city for camping. i also said we are doing groups so no one will get lost and we will not need to mark anything.
As a government employee, the Forest Service's whole way of going about this really rubs me the wrong way. They exist to protect the parks while at the same time allowing people to recreate in and enjoy them, and it seems like they're going to such an extreme to do the first that they won't allow the second to occur.
I can't stand Wal-Mart, but that doesn't give me the right to slow up the planning process or give them grief when I receive an application for development. And I certainly wouldn't be doing any of that behind closed doors.
Disappointing.
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