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Illegal wheeling video in the UP

18K views 166 replies 54 participants last post by  USMC 0369 
#1 ·
Just got word that the DNR has stumbled into a U-Tube video of some illegal wheeling in the UP. It's on the agenda for the next ORV Advisory Board meeting. At this time we don't have any idea what they plan on doing with it.
We're trying to locate it. Has anyone seen anything like this? Just want to be prepared if/when the DNR Chief starts to berate us. Any help in locating it would be appreciated.
Thanks!
Jim-kb8ymf
 
#86 ·
Got the money to put those people in the legeslative seats? I don't.

You joined this forum a year ago & have 779 posts. Have you ever looked at anything on this page?

http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/forumdisplay.php?f=38
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=40177
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=41183

and this one
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=20620

Contacted you? Have you asked or looked?

When you say "you", try saying it while you look in the mirror.

We need help here folks.
 
#88 ·
As far as Fire tower hill closure, I did my own leg work on that one...........That hill has been destroyed in the past two decades, and is completely impassible with anything less then a class 5 rig.

The public got what they deserved. (the legal 4 wheelers were screwed)

And your last thread post, you should be careful.........I did help you pick up trash two years ago. I had other obligations for this past year, other wise I would have been there.
Like I said earlier, what you guys do is awesome, and you have my respect.
But we are losing faster then you guys are gaining, and we need to get it done, or we are done.
Although paying a membership fee will help with your financial obligations. Its not enough money to change minds in legislation. We need to go talk to the right people.

The problem is that the people who can make changes, are not going to come to us to see how they can help .....................and excuse this metaphor............sometimes you gotta hit the Bull between the eyes with a 2x4 in order to get his attention.
Posting threads are good, but I did not see all of them with the traffic this site has. (and I'm on here every day)

I will PM you, and I will do what I can to help out as much as I can.

Thank You for the discussion.
 
#87 ·
I posted something in another thread in Land Use. There is a bill in the Senate right now, HR 1975. Its a partial version of that wonderful Roadless Initiative we got to deal with a few years ago from our buddy Al Gore via Slick Willy that was dismissed by GW. It is only affecting Western states but it will more than likely be expanded eventually. Google it for some more info but either way, wrie an emaill to your reps about it.

Its our land to use and if you want to keep it that way you better be heard.
 
#89 ·
For what its worth, i just donated my $35 to GLFWDA...via paypal


So then how is the Jeep Blessing legal that is being held tomorrow, just out of curiousity.......

And its funny, i attended a township meeting for Kids in the Mud ORV park that they were trying to get opened up and hell it never even made it the state level it can't get past the local township with a population of like 200 .......so yeah why is Michigan so anti-wheeling when were supposed to be a recreational state lol
 
#90 ·
I will post the main details from the meeting we have with the DNR. As for being polite and such, of course. That’s the only way to be taken seriously and get answers.

I will never give up this sport. Its part of my life and what I love to do. I enjoy many things of mother nature, wheelin is a great way to get out in da-bush and see things others never will. I have know our voice needs to be heard. But I guess I never really knew it was this bad. Now I know and sure as shit I’ll do my part.

I do believe as the V.P. club funds pay for my membership as well as the Presidents into GLFWDA. It just hasn’t gone through yet.

Oh and one thing I was thinking of doing in our area after talking to the DNR is maybe getting some information about CFA. Maybe a contact number for CFA or local timber companies. By talking to them I, we, could figure out what they will permit on there land.
 
#91 ·
There's been one thing mentioned in here that I have very mixed feelings about. That's the fact that all of this is Lansing's interpretation and, as stated above, the local CO is the person who's interpretation counts in the field. He's the one deciding to write you up or not. The problem is that COs don't always share the same interpretation.
There are COs who don't have a problem with trails that other COs would have an absolute conniption-fit over.

Should there be uniform interpretation and enforcement?
As VP of GLFWDA I have to say yes. . .
but, I'm not going to be the one to bring it up.
That's because I fear that if we do, the interpretations that are more strict will win out, and those few pockets of slightly looser enforcement will be lost.

When it REALLY comes down to it, it's the Judge's interpretation that truly counts. Just ask Marvin Farley, aka Grandman.:thumb:

We need a better system. One that provides our form of recreation in a manner that is easily accessible by all residents, without needing to drive 3 hours away to get to 'legal 4 wheeling' that leaves the enthusiast wanting bigger, better, and more.

Bigger, better, and more is readily available here; and to have it dangling like a carrot in front of us, while not providing for full-sized ORVs is almost an open invitation by the State for illegal use. How can it not happen?

I believe that there can be a tremendous difference between what's illegal and what's immoral. Is seriously damaging a stream bed illegal? You bet. Is it immoral? It is in my values system. Is splashing around in an over sized mud puddle that doesn't drain into anything illegal? Probably. Is it immoral? Not in my mind. Not one bit. Especially when there are THOUSANDS of acres of wetlands that are protected "forever".

I digress. It's getting late and I'm bushed.
Must be time to hit it.
 
#92 ·
I commend everyone on this thread for their comments. I have learned alot about what is considered "legal". My question is where does this leave drummond? Most of the trails there are not 2 wheel trails. Does that mean we should walk to marblehead. I camp out at that end of island 3 or 4 times a year. In fact the trip that a few went on a couple weeks ago required at least 33's and a locker. It looked like a great trip and I would of loved to go. I didnt see anyone commenting to these guys that they shouldnt be posting pics. Im a little confused. I think everyone has a gray area problem. And the question about mesick the mud in mesick is man made. That makes a difference in the eyes of deq and dnr. Great thread. Just had to add a question.

thanks
kyle
 
#95 ·
Ok so now I am really lost at what the "laws" are, if I am supposed to be able to do everything in 2-wheel, every trail/ seasonal road/ what not, then how am I supposed to get out to my camp?

I have property in the UP and for much of the year a person can not make it out to camp in 2 wheel, it is all seasonal roads/no waterways around out there but still between the sand and hills 9 out of 10 times you need to spin a tire to make it down the road.

If this is the case that we are legally supposed to follow then in turn the property is a lost cause? This is where I hunt and fish and according to what I have read so far I am breaking the "law" pretty much anytime I go out to camp. The idea of spinning a tire I think needs to be re-worded. I can see the person that leaves it in 2 wheel to try and dig stuff up being wrong. And in the same sense anyone "trying to just tear it up" being wrong but for those that do not live in the concrete jungle a spinning tire is a way of life.
Hell I had to spin my tires multiple times last winter and yes I was in 2 wheel drive, my front wheel drive car, delivering pizza's in the vast UP.
 
#97 ·
Those of you that are asking the questions about Drummond and your camps in the UP and so on are asking the same type of questions that are SOOOO hard to pin down. The letter of the law makes it hard to dispute. But then common sense does seem to prevail in certain areas. Like TF said, if they come to a common enforcement, the bet is that we will get the worse end of it.

I also think TF makes a very good point. The majority of us love our land and that's part of the alure. We like being in the woods and don't want to see it destroyed. Big industry and mother nature do far more damage than we could ever hope to do. I look at trails that I ran 30 years ago and they look exactly the same now as then. And I keep saying to myself if no one can even enter the forest, what are we saving it for?

More than once we have been accused of "you guys with big tires tear it up so no one can get thru it". arrrgggg! That is so frustrating since I can literally idle through stuff that a stock 4x4 can't make it through. I'm not tearing it up! In my "moral" opinion, leaving a few ruts on a 2 track do nothing in the scope of what heavy industry does. But getting that through to the lawmakers seems to fall on deaf ears.

I agree we need to get to the right lawmakers and we have been trying to do that with limited funds. With the state of our economy, our problems are nothing to them. And since they are short staffed, the easiest way to monitor us is to simply keep us out. Plus, face it, a ticket is revenue.

I do not have the answer to your questions. I believe that many of the northern CO's use common sense and don't have a problem with anyone driving down a semi muddy trail or a sandy trail.

Keep in mind that this whole thread started because it came up on the DNR agenda. People need to be aware of the ramifications when posting pics and video.

This is not unique to Michigan. If you guys want some insight as to the issues other states are seeing, log onto ufwda.org Browse around there & you will see that areas all around the country are fighting the same type of issues.

Thanks for keeping this thread healty. I only hope that after the hoopla dies down that everyone doesn't just fade away.

Jim
 
#102 ·
Well its obvious what we need to do, lets quit talking about what we need to do and start on how...first we know we need to change the laws, but the way we need to do that is to get new people up there on the fight to start lobbying legislature. How do we get new people on this ORV advisory board. Lets get a small group to draw up a general consensus of what needs to be done, and start sending this petition around to each forum located in Michigan. We could get everyone to digitally "sign" it, then have this emailed back to someone at a certain time from each forum admin. Then submit this to the government. That way people could get their voices heard if they don't feel the need or have the money to spend to join GLFWDA or united. Other ideas?
 
#103 · (Edited)
Getting on the ORV advisory board will help, but it's not really all that powerful. What we need is lobbying power with the legislators. That means a show of force (large numbers of people) and support for legislators (large amounts of cash) -- we're on our way at Great Lakes Four Wheel Drive Association -- please check it out and considering joining. Why are the snowmobilers able to get anything they want? Because they have the people and the money and the power to be heard. Support the Sport! www.glfwda.org
 
#104 ·
Why are the snowmobilers able to get anything they want? Because they have the people and the money and the power to be heard. Support the Sport! www.glfwda.org
seems like the state bends overbackwards for snowmibilers and their seasonal, I can't speak for everyone, buti wheel my $hit year round




I couldn't afford to join GLFWDA, BUT I FOUND A WAY:thumb: :woot: and i know if i can alot of you others can to
 
#113 · (Edited)
I had been thinking about joining GLFWDA for a while but I hadn't had the money. Well, I just bought a house so I have even less money for the next 30 years, but I just coughed up the $35 and I am now a member as of 2 minutes ago.

I love the sport too much to let it go to hell. If we can figure out a plan to get the DNR or whomever we need to to listen to our concerns, that will be a big step toward saving what we all (at least most of us) love, FOUR-wheeling.

BTW, my avatar is from the badlands, where driving in water is legal. Just don't want any grief cause of that.
 
#115 ·
a few thoughts...

#1 Maybe i missed to but I didn't see anyone post the information about where and when the ORV advisory board meeting is. It's this week, Wednesday May 9th. More info: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/2007ORV-SCHEDULE_180055_7.pdf

I don't know if I'll make it, probably not this time.

#2 I didn't see the "boy scout trail" video before it was removed, but I have wheeled some of those CFA lands, and had gone in with the understanding that they were legal, although I don't know the actual laws governing those type of lands.

#3 I did watch the "Cedar River" video and really, don't see the big deal. If no one told you it was in Michigan you wouldn't know unless you yourself ran that trail. The sign at the beginning looks like one of those signs that you see along ORV route that says in big letter "NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES" and in tiny letter under it "unless licensed by the secretary of state". I know that that sign is not meant to supersede the "2wd car" law but I'm also pretty sure that if you got a ticket on one of those roads you could fight in and win because you were in compliance with the signs "on the ground" and it's the states fault if those don't reflect the laws on the books. What i see in that video is just some people having fun following an existing muddy 2 track.

#4 about the 2wd thing, that is a definition of what is considered a "road" in state forests, nothing more. As far as I know it doesn't mean a thing outside of state forests.

#5 I don't think there's a law saying "you can't spin a tire" I believe it says "you can't drive in such a way as to cause erosion". Just what is meant by that would seem to be up to the interpretation of the CO and the judge if you fight it.
 
#116 ·
Question for "OneManBanned"... are you the guy that showed up to an ORV meeting and got removed for being a disturbance and a general 'jerk off' (that's an industry term).

If you can't control your anger and present yourself as a rational person, nobody is ever going to listen to you. I myself would have liked to hear more about this alleged abuse of power and tenure in the system. If it's a FACT that can be proven on the books, then hell yes I'm all for ejecting some ass hats that abuse the system. But honestly you sound like a drunk in a bar picking a fight. And all people do with them is roll thier eyes and continue thier conversations. Much like what just happened.

Yes, I am QUITE ignorant to the system as I'm stuck out here in California until my service is up. I don't follow a lot of your innuendo's because I don't have the backstory. Are you saying that GLFWDA is impotent either by structure or intentionally? Are you saying something about someone IN GLFWDA? Or are you talking about the ORV board member(s)?

I'm not trying to be a dick and show you what a big brain I have, I'm just trying to understand your point.
 
#118 ·
Gut check everyone...any department's "advisory board" is just that, advisory in nature and useless beyond the department being able to do whatever they want with a clear conscience because "they heard from the public advisory board."

So, I still stick by my belief that the advisory board isn't all that powerful. However, the DNR is powerful -- too powerful. And since it's an executive branch department, the only way to balance that power is via the Legislature -- one of the other three powerful branches of government. In theory, the Legislature is more representative of the people because there are 148 elected officials involved as opposed to one elected official and thousands of bureaucrats on a power trip.

That's just my opinion so take it for what it's worth. However, I've worked in a state department that thrived on "public input" and I've worked in the Legislature, so I have a bit of experience on which to base that opinion. (Doesn't mean I'm necessarily right -- again it's just my opinion based on my personal experiences, just like every other opinion on here.)

On a side note, I'm thrilled to see all the people getting involved on this thread, getting fired up about doing something and joining GLFWDA, etc. The momentum is great -- now let's keep it up. (That's what she said! -- any "Office" fans on here? :sonicjay: )
 
#126 · (Edited)
Wow, I am learning a lot from this thread.

I have many questions though. Do these laws not apply to areas that are designated ORV parks (Mounds, Badlands, Silver Lake)? I'm referring to the "2wd must be able to get through it" and no spinning tires.

When you are driving down the road and see a dirt trail you might want to check out, is it legal to go drive down it as long as there are no "No Trespassing" signs? Is this where those laws pertain to? I have to turn around the minute I know I can't make it through without 4wd or without spinning my tires.

I'm glad I'm not done working on the Jeep so I can inform myself on these laws before breaking them from ignorance.
 
#127 ·
Wow, I am learning a lot from this thread.

I have many questions though. Do these laws not apply to areas that are designated ORV parks (Mounds, Badlands, Silver Lake)? I'm referring to the "2wd must be able to get through it" and no spinning tires.

Designated orv parks do not apply to these laws as far as tire spin, hill climbing etc...but the wetland laws still apply anywhere

When you are driving down the road and see a dirt trail you might want to check out, is it legal to go drive down it as long as there are no "No Trespassing" signs? Is this where those laws pertain to? I have to turn around the minute I know I can't make it through without 4wd or without spinning my tires.

Just because theirs no sign does not make it legal, and yes by the way the law is written you have to turn around if you can't go forward without 2wd
I'm glad I'm not done working on the Jeep so I can inform myself on these laws before breaking them from ignorance.



virtually all these laws are up for interpertation (sp) by the officer himself, cause each one has their own idea what the laws actually are
 
#129 ·
B2Bomber and myself were talking about this...........

Maybe we need to go to lansing and have an old school rally.........

I mean think about it, this state needs to recognize us, not just by the DNR but by the governor etc....i mean over all theirs thousands of us that wheel and would like to wheel in this state. The state needs to realize that many of us travel out of state to spend our money on ORV parks, gas, camping/lodging, food the list could go on and on. I keep seeing the same thing DNR this DNR that, i think we need to go past that, make the bigger ones in charge who complain about the state budget see that their losing money hand over fist here. I mean look at history, we need more then just small groups at small meetings, get the news involved, make it more then just a group of guys who read about this stuff on the net, make it so all those guys and gals without computers know about it.
 
#131 ·
WOW!
I just can't keep up with all of you!
I guess I'll just add this for now:

GLFWDA is taking steps to address the poor state of ORV legislation.

Step 1) Form a Land Use Committee to unify all of our various initiatives - DONE (although ALWAYS in progress, join us!)

Step 2) Hold a "Learning to Lobby Workshop" - to be scheduled for late THIS quarter - JOIN US!

Step 3) Decide which legislation is first priority (I'm sure we all want the 2wd and erosive condition clauses tackled)

Step 4) Develop a list of "ORV or 4x4 Friendly" legislators - Already started (THANK YOU Collin!!!)

Step 5) Implement what we've learned at our 'Workshop'

This process was outlined and started several months ago but is still young enough that ANYONE on this site who felt strongly enough to join GLFWDA and its Land Use Committee (LUC) at this time would still be just as informed as those who expressed interest at its inception.

Join us, PLEASE!
 
#132 ·
Just another quick note:

The AB held nominations and voted on membership at the first meeting this year.

ALL AB members are currently sitting by PROPER vote.

Sorry OMB, you'll have to find another web to weave, this one has come unraveled.
 
#133 · (Edited)
Again, I'm just here to stop the spin, Pat.

Those nominations were simply to establish parliamentary positions for the board itself (election of officers so to speak)....not a formal request by the DNR; to the 'peon' general public; for an opportunity to actually serve on this board to make up for the time lost years ago when these two terms expired.(with no announcement to that effect whatsoever).

Either you truly do believe that these people are stupid enough to swallow what you've just offered...or you're just so used to 'spinning' that you can't even separate the reality involved in these 'right to know' issues to begin with.(sorry, Pat; yet I just can't let you get away with saying things like the above when I know darn well that there are guys on here who know better).

The only people who (quote/unquote) "vote" on these people are the DNR themselves...every one of them has always been hand-picked by nobody but....and this latest 'we will by gosh allow our selections to serve just as long as we see fit!' nonsense is one but of a myriad of tactics used over the years to stifle simple day-to-day input from the general public.
 
#137 · (Edited)
Here's a copy of an email I sent to the GLFWDA members who usually show up at the meetings:

I will be there.

I have a fear that we'll have 20 or more full-size enthusiasts show and each rant and rave for their 3 minute comment period.
I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY believe that we should ALL refrain from comment on the video.

IF you have something to say, WRITE IT DOWN. We would/could then have a discussion on it on our own private forum, compile all of our comments, form them into a concise, cohesive document that we can read or submit as the 'official' GLFWDA response to the video at the following AB meeting.

I think we should have ONE, and only ONE, person stand up and quietly let them know (IF they're looking for a response at all) that having just been shown the video, GLFWDA can not comment until a copy had been obtained from the Department, reviewed by the GLFWDA BOD, and a proper response formulated. That response will be ready for the next AB meeting.
. . .or something like that.

Thoughts?

I'm just afraid that 20- 30 people spouting off will make us (4 wheelers) look like idiots.

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to have 20-30 4x4 enthusiasts present at EVERY meeting. I just don't want the sport to look like a bunch of unlike-minded, unorganized, lunatics (like OMB comes off as).

If you're planning to attend; listen, think, and get with me or GLFWDA AFTER the meeting and let us know how you feel and what you think.

Please.
 
#143 ·
Whenever I respond to things, I feel much like an outsider looking in. Which is not always a bad thing.

I think what Trail Fanatic is trying to avoid by having GLFWDA give a consolidated, somewhat rehearsed and unified response from the full sized offroad community is an "OMB "Please leave these procedings"" type of reaction from the DNR. I like to think of it as a court trial. Although I'm the guy that's accused of murder, and I KNOW that I didn't do it, I'm still letting the lawyer talk, make the objections, and handle procedure because I'll probably do something that the prosecuters can twist and manipulate against me. I suppose a representative from the club that the 'offenders' belong to, or the individuals themselves to speak would be a plus as well. It would show that we do hold ourselves accountable and this was NOT an intentional breaking of the law.


IF you have something to say, WRITE IT DOWN. We would/could then have a discussion on it on our own private forum, compile all of our comments, form them into a concise, cohesive document that we can read or submit as the 'official' GLFWDA response to the video at the following AB meeting.
Okay, so I'll shoot my mouth off first about what I think should be addressed at the AB meeting.

1. This is NOT a habitual activity by the offroad community. Especially those in organized clubs, or individuals that belong to GLFWDA.

2. The underlying reason for this incident (and if you investigate the DNR citations written in the last... say... millenium I'm sure you'll find they're similar) is a lack of knowledge of what the laws truly SAY. (notice the word "say") Education of the public with an emphasis on owners of SUV, ORV vehicles is a serious downfall of the DNR. People simply don't know when they are breaking the law. Now one of the big stipulations of 'laws' is that ignorance is not a defense. A recommendation is to send a task force to the most popular ORV sites in Michigan and have an information booth set up. Much like the state police do at the county fairs or normal summertime community events for recruiting.

3. Lastly the 'laws' themselves leave a great deal of interpretation to the 'law' to the officer on the scene; and inconsitency between officers' interpretations is confusing us in the offroad community. For example, a DNR officer in the U.P. may not cite a person for erosive activities where as a person in Eaton County has a "pet-peave" about it; so when a 'yooper' comes down to slum with us 'trolls', he doesn't understand why he's receiving a citation for something he's done all his life. A recommendation for corrective action would be either more extensive training for the DNR officers concerning matters of offroad trail use to ensure equal enforcement of all laws accross the board.

Again my opinion; but its not very helpful to just bitch about something in order to have people listen to you. To be constructive you'll need to format things much like we do here at the Urban Warfare Training Center. You need an Observation (what is wrong), Impact (How is this affecting the offroad community) and a Recommendation (how to fix it).

I have to get back to work. Thanks for reading.
 
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