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Do teachers need to work more hours

17K views 108 replies 36 participants last post by  RyeBread 
#1 · (Edited)
Title: Teacher Work Hours in Michigan, a Web-based Survey

Abstract

Hypothesis: Teachers in Michigan work 1960 hours or more per year, consistent with their salary and a typical 40 hour/week position.

Methods: This study surveyed teachers and teacher spouses on a 4x4 web forum to collect information on teacher work hours including classroom hours, pre- and post- school year activities, and required conferences. Participants were not screened for entry into the study, and all responses were voluntary.

Results: Teachers work hours could not be established due to lack of sufficient data from individuals on the 4x4 web forum.

Discussion: The group surveyed was inadequately informed to provide sufficient data to suppor or reject the hypothesis. While it remains uncertain if teachers work the equivalent of a 40hr/week job, several social issues were explored. This warrants future studies surveying other populations such as a teaching-based web forum to ascertain the actual hours worked by teachers in Michigan.



To save TSAguy's thread, starting a new one.

NOTE:
This is not about whether teachers are beneficial to our children. They are.
This is not about if teaching is a tough job. It is.
This is not about adding hours to kid's school hours. They need a creative break.
This is not about whether we appreciate teachers. We do.

This is an accounting exercise. 1) Do Michigan teachers work as many hours as the average American adult? 2) If not, is it fair to expect that more hours be maintained in order to improve our school performance ratings?

Here is what we have so far:

Average pay for a non charter school teachers in Michigan is about $63,000
http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/18684

Median household income in Michigan is $48,669
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26000.html

Michigan school performance is ranked 28th in the US
http://www.usnews.com/education/high...hools-rankings

Question: Do teachers work the equivalent of a standard full-time job or should more time be expected from them?
Let's try to complete the timechart - HOW MANY HOURS A YEAR DOES A TEACHER WORK?

Average employee with 40 hours / week and 3 weeks vacation/sick = 49 weeks x 40 = 1960 hours/year for non-teachers
 
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#3 ·
They'll tell you the bs that they take work home with them at night, but that's a bunch of bologna. I know teachers who take evey summer, and just travel all over. It's a cake job, for that kind of money. The teachers union has such a foot hold, it's disgusting, and corrupt. Make them clean the schools and pull weeds all summer.
 
#44 ·
I don't know who "they is" vs. the ones you know.

I do know that my mother, now retired was in the building by 7:00 a.m. and did not leave until 5:00 pm. Mon-Fri.

Yes, she took work home too.

Yes, she was back early from "summer vacation" to set up her class room.

As a teacher of younger ages, including some early ed. in Brandon schools she dealt with kids who had parents that wouldn't even teach their kids basic hygiene - let alone hold the kids accountable for poor behavior or performance.

as for Michigan being ranked 28th in the nation - I challenge folks to look into means to fix that - if a teacher can't hold jimmy back cause he'd rather flick boogers (or eat them) than learn the study material - and if parents aren't held somewhat accountable for their misfits then what good does having a disgruntled teacher picking weeds during the summer do?

oh yeah. I have a 13 year old and a 10 year old in Fenton Schools. my 10 year old has developed a habit of leaving his backpack at school and somehow not discovering this factoid until close to 5:00. only once have we not been able to get into his class room to fetch it for the evening, and his teacher is returning phone calls and e-mails well after dinner time on more than one occasion.
 
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#11 ·
To start, the average school year is 30 weeks of class, is this correct?

Assuming 10 hours / day (class + grading for those that don't have free hours)

30 weeks x 50 hours/week = 1500 hours.

What else? Conferences, training, beginning of year preparations? Teachers and spouses, please help us add some hours to reflect these "other" responsibilities.
If you really want to bitch about how your tax dollars are spent, you would garner a lot more support if you complained about Congress rather than educated middle class workers who make less than non eductated union auto workers.
 
#6 ·
Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do – babysit!

We can get that for less than minimum wage.

That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan– that equals 6 1/2 hours).

Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day.

However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

LET’S SEE….

That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!

The average teacher’s salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!
 
#7 ·
IIRC, which doesn't happen much these days, the school district I grew up in had a pay scale that was based upon senority, not merit. I know there were pay adders for additional schooling and degrees.

As a result our district had quite a few fossils that were horrible teachers, well paid, and untouchable. We also would lose a lot of good younger teachers to other districts because of the pay scales.

However our school district was fucked up on numerous levels so I don't know if I'd expect this to be the norm everywhere.

Regardless of how you feel they should be compensated, being a teacher would be a pretty tough job in today's society where you have zero recourse with students and the students bring zero respect and responsibility into the class room.

That being said I think teachers should be compensated adequately for what they do, but shitty teacher should be kicked to the curb regardless of unions and tenure.
 
#12 ·
You get paid to do a job. Who cares what hours you work. You don't work to put in hours, you work to complete a task.

The teachers task is to teach students. The annual going rate is the going rate. The number of hours is immaterial. Breaking it down into hourly wage is something people do when they are jealous of what others make.

Teachers require more education than people holding many jobs that fall under 'median' household income, especially in state that has households in Detroit, Flint, and Pontiac. They SHOULD make more than median.

If they are living high on the hog, and it bothers you, then YOU are the dummy who didn't become a teacher.
 
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#13 ·
Why are all of you hung up on the fact that teachers don't work a full work year? That is part of their deal and should have nothing to do with their annual salary. Bankers work less hours than rail road workers... So what?? Bottom line is a teacher gets paid a certain salary to work 10 months out of the year and basically 24/7 during the 10 months that they are working. The fact that you are bitter and jealous because you have to work a normal work week is your problem. This argument about they don't work a full year is ridiculous. I get paid a certain salary and it doesn't change if I work 5 days a week or 7, this was understood when I took my job and I am compensated accordingly. If I felt I wasn't, I would find a new job (not bitch about how little others work), that's how it works in adult world.
This ^^^^ and Teachers need to make more $. Lets get the best minds we can to teach our children. Lets not encourage teaching jobs to be filled by "median" quality workers.
 
#20 ·
Here's a better comparison of wages of teachers v waves of all workers:

All Occupations (burger-flippers to NFL stars) $39,936
All Education/Training/Library Professions $47,580
Post-Secondary Teachers $63,232
PreSchool and Kindergarten Teachers $30,628
Elementary and Middle School Teachers $48,984
Secondary Education Teachers $52,468
Special Education Teachers $49,088
Other Teachers $40,820

These stats are national and only include those employed full-time (for each wage category listed). The source is the BLS's CPS.



Agreed 1,000x.
 
#17 ·
To the "teachers make too much for their cake walk part time job" camp:

Why aren't you guys teachers? You could be riding the gravy train with biscuit wheels!!!

:poke:
 
#30 ·
To save TSAguy's thread, starting a new one.

NOTE:
This is not about whether teachers are beneficial to our children. They are.
This is not about if teaching is a tough job. It is.
This is not about adding hours to kid's school hours. They need a creative break.
This is not about whether we appreciate teachers. We do.

This is an accounting exercise. 1) Do Michigan teachers work as many hours as the average American adult? 2) If not, is it fair to expect that more hours be maintained in order to improve our school performance ratings?

Here is what we have so far:

Average pay for a non charter school teachers in Michigan is about $63,000
http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/18684

Median household income in Michigan is $48,669
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26000.html

Michigan school performance is ranked 28th in the US
http://www.usnews.com/education/high...hools-rankings

Question: Do teachers work the equivalent of a standard full-time job or should more time be expected from them?
Let's try to complete the timechart - HOW MANY HOURS A YEAR DOES A TEACHER WORK?

Average employee with 40 hours / week and 3 weeks vacation/sick = 49 weeks x 40 = 1960 hours/year for non-teachers
Median house hold in MI, are you considerign the fact that they have to have a degree to teach? where does there salary fall compared to average salaries of people with similar degrees?


Yes, I don't like government wasting of my tax dollar. But here I am only accounting (not bitching) for the return on my investment as it relates to teachers. It's called accountability.
I agree about accountability, I think this thread discussing their pay is barking up the wrong tree, accountability is the tree you're after
:thumb:
 
#35 ·
partially true. Have you ever seen the impact of a single bad teacher? It can be very detrimental. That said, this doesn't really relate to the topic as I doubt having teachers work through the summer would eliminate bad teachers.
 
#43 ·
I can fire or discipline a shitty employee. If I have a shitty boss, I can change jobs. With an unruly child, I can only hope the parents will give me support. Sadly, in todays world, that is not as common as one might think.

And again, ever had a birthday party with 10 or so kids running around for a few hours? Ever be in a position where you can't wait for it to end? Now magnify that number x3 and do it every day. Sure, it's a career they chose but they still need a break from it.
 
#45 ·
I can fire or discipline a shitty employee. If I have a shitty boss, I can change jobs. With an unruly child, I can only hope the parents will give me support. Sadly, in todays world, that is not as common as one might think.
Everything said here also applies to policemen and nurses as much as teachers, however only one of the three get the summer off. How about day-care workers? Guess they need the summer off also...
 
#47 ·
I'd also suggest that anyone looking into teaching consider how difficult it is to change jobs to a different district once that master's degree is already in hand.

while not impossible, it is in fact VERY difficult to change districts. most districts would rather bring in a fresh teacher at a lower pay grade (arguably more energetic as well?) than an experienced educator that already has their Master's.

I know of several nurses that have job-hopped from one hospital to another in the past 3 years alone...
 
#56 ·
Yea, it's a perk, but you could do it too. Just quit your job for the summer. It's almost the same thing. I don't work for the school over the summer, I don't get paid. Or a better example would be road construction where you get laid off over the winter and can collect unemployment. Teachers can not collect unemployment over the summer.
 
#59 ·
They are not paid based on some ranking or what workers in other unrelated industries are paid. So saying they are overpaid is a subjective statement, an opinion, not a fact.

If you want to say they are overpaid based on the laws of supply and demand, then they probably are, like most of us. But you don't exactly create a thriving work environment by seeing how little you can pay people before they stop showing up or applying for open positions (the equilibrium point).
 
#53 ·
Actually, why can't we have a year round school year. We are not an agrarian society that needs its children to work the field in the summer. There are countless studies that show pupils forget a lot of what they learned the year before and the beginning of next school year is wasted on repeating old information.

In a society where most households have both parents working, it would make more sense to have a year round school year and it would be beneficial to our kids education.
 
#62 ·
We have one such school (it still has breaks, but shorter).. its very popular with dual working families. THere's a lottery to even get in. The bus routes are long due to transfers, so it does pretty much cover babysitting for the whole day. Seems to work well, although we are perfectly happy with our 'normal' elementary (there are 6 or 7 elementaries in the orion district, some are standard 'neighborhood' schools, some are specific, like arts, natural science, or year round).

But if you are talking going another 2 months.. thats another 2 months of lunch service, electricity, etc. That costs more. Good luck passing a millage for that. As you can see, there's already too many people who think taxes are taking away all their hard earned beer and mayo sandwich money.
 
#57 ·
From the way teachers describe it, teaching is the worst job in the world. Almost on par with being a slave or in forced labor. With all the complaining they do they sound like the kids they teach. If it's such a shitty job, quit.
 
#60 ·
Just as another person tale, I will share some of my story.

Both of my parents are now retired elementary school teachers. Both have Bachelors degrees, one has a Masters. Both worked for a semi-rural school district for 30-35+ years. I make as much if not more as a recent college grad (in engineering, so the comparison is almost not fair)

In exchange for their time, they constantly had parents that did not give a shit/didn't want their kids and wanted free baby sitting. They had parents who did not want to help their child succeed so it was the teachers fault homework was not done, the kid didn't pay attention, or that they lacked basic human function/control that should have been learned by a 3-4 year old. It was almost impossible to do their job with administrators breathing down your neck, the same way a manager would to an employee in any other job.

Then it is equally frustrating when a good kid is not able to get 100% because you have to teach to everybody, from those who care(as much as a kid in elementary school could) to the lowest common denominator hellion.

When I was in elementary school, they would leave an hour or two before me, and would be home a couple hours after I got home. They regularly spent money to buy school supplies or lunch for a kid who didn't have any. I remember former students coming back to say hello to my parents, or stopping to chat as adults when we passed them in the store, so I am confident that they tried their hardest and where in the category we would all describe as a "good teacher".

People like my parents are equally frustrated that some of their co-workers were real pieces of shit sometimes. They were handcuffed into working with terrible people too, and could not do or say much just like most of us in our regular jobs.

If teaching was such a gravy job, there would not be the wash out rate there is. The pay is somewhat market based. "Good" school districts typically pay more because they see the value in getting good educators and base their pay accordingly. My parents could have made as much as $10k more a year working in the "better" district a town over.

After seeing they type of crap they had to go through, I would not want the job for even more money than I make now and the summer off. Sure, there are teachers that don't care and ride the perks like a pro, but I don't feel that is the norm and I know there are people like that in every profession.
 
#61 ·
For those that say teachers don't take thier work home......You've never lived with a teacher before have you?

My mother, who was a music teacher, regularly had work to bring home and she didn't even have a full class. She was also required to provide alot of her equipment (instruments = $$$) out of her salary. It wasn't factored into her salary either.

My brother is a teacher, he always has papers to grade, books to read, and curriculum to figure out.

They are teaching the future generation the basics of society. I think paying them for thier job, most of which have masters degrees, is plenty worth it.

If you're jealous, suck it up. You were stupid enough to get a job were you didn't get summers off.
 
#66 ·
Kids get burnt out. Period. More school does not equal more learning.

Summertime is recharge session for the entire school system; cleaning, maintenance, training,construction, technology updates, etc etc but more importantly the kids. One of biggest differences I notice is the maturation process that happens over the summer, kids come back refreshed with a clean slate, ready for a new experience.

Most people cannot fathom the teaching environment which I can understand, but pounding the system to get more out of it is not right. It's like telling farmer the more he drives on the field the faster it will grow.
 
#68 ·
Actually, my brother works at a year round school. According to him, it's quite the opposite. The reason for this is that they get thier breaks spread out through out the year. This avoids the chunks of time like the one we all hated between spring break and the end of the year. They still get a larger summer break (a month or so) but it helps them retain what they learned the year before. My brother says he never has to review with a new batch of kids after summer.

The only problem with this is that you run into added costs of running the schools all year. Most districts will not run AC or even all the lights during the summer. There's no need.
 
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