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Old February 9th, 2008, 09:22 AM   #61
Sol Goode
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I am all for giving the goverment MORE control :rollseyes:
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Old February 9th, 2008, 11:47 AM   #62
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What about medical savings accounts?
Give people the choice to "shop around" for the best/cheapest care they choose.
Forcing doctors to lower their price to get more 'customers'.

I really don't know enough about a plan like that, I've just heard it discussed before.
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Old February 9th, 2008, 12:01 PM   #63
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yes health care cost are to high,but anyone that has dealt with anything the goverment has their hands on sees the problem of goverment care. we need change true. until then i'm sending my wife to nusing school. f---. it can't beat'em join'em
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Old February 9th, 2008, 01:11 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InBBA View Post
Excellent point to bring as another example for this argument that most would agree with, funding public schools




Ahh, I see another intelligent post by Steveo. Keep up the good work :miff:




I completely understand where he is coming from. I worked full time in college to be eligible for health care for the wife and I. Before that when we didn't have health care I would have to be dying in order to go to the doctors and at once I did go due to Pneumonia and that cost me $700 but atleast I didn't die

With so many lower education jobs getting shipped over seas we will see that obtaining health care is going to be a huge obstical for the uneducated class. It appears that most on this site has the opinion that they don't count and should just die. Thankfully I chose to better myself and attend college which helped me land a good job with good benefits. And luckily for myself God blessed me (or Mother Nature for you non-believers) with a brain that could get me through school.

There are always going to be those ditch diggers, burger flippers, and muke rakers in the world and they are who I am concerned about in the future. I am concerned because of the statements already made in this thread and I believe that since they are human they should atleast be treated like a human and not just left to die or don't derserve to live because they can't pay for health care.

The above statement does not include over weight people because that can be overcome.

I also think that everyone should have to take a piss test to get any sort of federal benefits now or in the future. I love the email that is passed around about the piss test. I have to take one to work to fund your welfare so you should atleast have to pass one to use my money that the government forced me to donante.


Interesting read so far.
Regarding public schools, they're kinda in a different class than public health care, and I think you're wrong, most people would support funding for them. Schools are an essential part of infrastructure in society, along with police, fire, and other city services. If cheap, widely available public education does not exist, there's an even higher chance that people in high-dropout areas (Detroit for example) are even less likely to go, as their parents may not want to pay their taxes for public education (which in your suggested scenario - if you don't have kids, you're not paying either).

In reality, the burden of paying for a child's education shouldn't necessarily be on the parents, but on society as a whole. In effect, you're making an investment in children's education, expecting that they will give society a return once they become a functioning, working member of society. When you're paying taxes on education, you're really paying off your own debt to society for educating you.

Education is pretty essential to maintaining a cohesive, functional society, especially here, where we're moving away from brute force/manufacturing type jobs and becoming more focused on being highly specialized in certain fields.

And now tying education to health care - educate your young properly, they can grow up, get a job, and get their own!


Back on health care, I don't believe any of us are advocating that people be left for dead at all. But we don't want to be forced into universal health care either, I'm perfectly happy paying for my private health plan ($430/mo out of my own pocket, and that's just for me - I'm single with no children). My health plan provides me great coverage that I'm completely happy with.

Personally, I believe that people who are physically or mentally unable to work or care for themselves should have access to free health care. People that do work to care for themselves, but don't make enough to provide for health care should have access to some form of cheap health care, prorated against their ability to provide for themselves.

The rest of the people that are perennially unemployed, but are physically and mentally unable to work for themselves should be enrolled into programs similar to the WPA (Works Progress Administration) of the 30/40's. Tired of road projects taking so long? Shouldn't be an issue when you've got a large workforce of the unemployed available to perform this type of labor 24x7 until it's finished, rather than the halfass attempt all of these government contracted road work teams make to complete projects in a reasonable time. Crucial infrastructure is being repaired or built, and previously unemployed workers are employed, and getting the benefits they need.
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Old February 10th, 2008, 01:07 PM   #65
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I totally believe in public schools and cops and fire fighters and but they are just forms of acceptable government funded programs and I think that in 50 years or so the generation then will say the same thing about healthcare. Even though I agree with getting a good job and paying for it yourself I also think that it's coming and wont be stopped.
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Old February 10th, 2008, 01:14 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by ScOoTeR View Post
I'd like to comment on this :chiefwoohaw::chiefwoohaw::chiefwoohaw:
I also worry about a scenario like that if we're all forced into a public health care system. Thats why I want a system that "fills in the cracks" that people without other means of getting health care fall through.
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Old February 10th, 2008, 01:56 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schweeb View Post
Regarding public schools, they're kinda in a different class than public health care, and I think you're wrong, most people would support funding for them. Schools are an essential part of infrastructure in society, along with police, fire, and other city services. If cheap, widely available public education does not exist, there's an even higher chance that people in high-dropout areas (Detroit for example) are even less likely to go, as their parents may not want to pay their taxes for public education (which in your suggested scenario - if you don't have kids, you're not paying either).

In reality, the burden of paying for a child's education shouldn't necessarily be on the parents, but on society as a whole. In effect, you're making an investment in children's education, expecting that they will give society a return once they become a functioning, working member of society. When you're paying taxes on education, you're really paying off your own debt to society for educating you.

Education is pretty essential to maintaining a cohesive, functional society, especially here, where we're moving away from brute force/manufacturing type jobs and becoming more focused on being highly specialized in certain fields.

And now tying education to health care - educate your young properly, they can grow up, get a job, and get their own!


Back on health care, I don't believe any of us are advocating that people be left for dead at all. But we don't want to be forced into universal health care either, I'm perfectly happy paying for my private health plan ($430/mo out of my own pocket, and that's just for me - I'm single with no children). My health plan provides me great coverage that I'm completely happy with.

Personally, I believe that people who are physically or mentally unable to work or care for themselves should have access to free health care. People that do work to care for themselves, but don't make enough to provide for health care should have access to some form of cheap health care, prorated against their ability to provide for themselves.

The rest of the people that are perennially unemployed, but are physically and mentally unable to work for themselves should be enrolled into programs similar to the WPA (Works Progress Administration) of the 30/40's. Tired of road projects taking so long? Shouldn't be an issue when you've got a large workforce of the unemployed available to perform this type of labor 24x7 until it's finished, rather than the halfass attempt all of these government contracted road work teams make to complete projects in a reasonable time. Crucial infrastructure is being repaired or built, and previously unemployed workers are employed, and getting the benefits they need.

Now I agree with you on this, make sense and very reasonable to the point of including everyone.

But the idea about public schools potentially the same in the sense of we care for the young children to make them well and healthy so that they can go to school and apply themselves to be productive members of society. Right or not?
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Old February 10th, 2008, 02:46 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiNi Beast View Post
Now I agree with you on this, make sense and very reasonable to the point of including everyone.

But the idea about public schools potentially the same in the sense of we care for the young children to make them well and healthy so that they can go to school and apply themselves to be productive members of society. Right or not?
You can continue that point as far as you want to, but eventually you'll just end up with socialism. You have to draw the line somewhere.

Parents should be providing health care for their children wherever possible, and in the event they cannot, they should be receiving aid in a similar fashion to what I mentioned above. Either prorated based on the amount they make, or in the event that they're unemployed, they become a part in supporting essential infrastructure.

Socialism sounds great in theory, but over and over again, we show that you simply cannot rely on a system where there is simply no reward for working hard and trying to get ahead.
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Old February 10th, 2008, 03:03 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan View Post
What about medical savings accounts?
Give people the choice to "shop around" for the best/cheapest care they choose.
Forcing doctors to lower their price to get more 'customers'.

I really don't know enough about a plan like that, I've just heard it discussed before.
These are already becoming the next trend, however, we are having a hard time getting employers to buy into them.

The first "wave" of employers who were looking to save money on employer sponsored plans has already implemented this. The employee shoulders most of the costs (through high deductibles), but this is good for most people. You ask why? Because 20% of the employee population is responsible for 85% of the costs. So, for the other employees, they end up paying less overall by using their own money to buy into a HSA (Health Savings Account). They aren't visitng the doctor as much and the money rolls over year to year. Also the money is pre-tax deducted from their paycheck.

For the 20% that cause most of the healthcare costs, well... they pay for the higher costs, but the insurance kicks in at some point and pays the rest.

The problems we are seeing in the market is that there are still alot of companies that aren't buying into this. HSAs work best, in theory, when the whole market participates. This is because it forces doctors to compete. But, as healthcare costs increase, we will probably see the rest of the market trend this direction.

A 20,000 ft look at HSAs!
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