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Old January 7th, 2008, 05:38 PM   #101
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He's an enviromental guru.
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Old January 8th, 2008, 08:10 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by SKIP View Post
I'm still trying to find the magazine article. I went to B & N yesterday & they didn't have it, plus were clueless as to when it would come in...

Could someone please send one of the really good scans to me directly?
The ones on site are to hard for me to read.

president at glfwda dot org

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-Skip-
Email sent.
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Old January 8th, 2008, 08:13 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UP_ROKTOY View Post
Editor,

I would like to direct your attention to a discussion taking place on www.greatlakes4x4.com in regards to a recent article in your publication. The discussion can be seen here http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=72187 I'd ask you take a look at the discussion and the fuss you have caused. It would appear you have possibly trespassed, wheeled illegally, and failed to tread lightly. As an offroad enthusiast I suggest you do your part in correcting your mistake, a mistake which will in turn damage my hobby's reputation and possibly our rights to public land, by donating to the cause at www.glfwda.org, www.ufwda.org and also www.treadlightly.org

It's bad enough that we have to fight the battle with fellow enthusiasts who are trying to do the right thing, now we have to cover up for your mistakes as well?

In the future if you want to go offroad contact the people in the know at any of the websites above and make sure you adhere to the states laws in regards to proper orv use.

Thanks,

UP_ROKTOY




sent.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Sent this:

Dear Editor,
I am the trail ride committee chairman for Great Lakes Four Wheel Drive Association (GLFWDA.org) which is a non profit organization dedicated to the sport of Full Size 4x4 vehicle recreation. Our organization is in constant contact with the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ) and we continually find ourselves doing damage control with the DEQ due to uneducated people violating our state laws.

Your recent article depicting vehicles on Drummond Island was recently brought to my attention. It is articles like this that continue to get more of our public land closed. Your people driving on closed beaches give the unknowing beginner the false impression that these are open beaches. In turn, it gives those trying to close our public land more ammunition, showing how people disregard the laws.

You are not the only ones. I find it horrifying how many of our auto companies show 4x4ís splashing through streams and mud with wheels churning. This tells everyone that this is what the enthusiast wants.

Well, we donít.

I suggest that you contact the local Michigan DEQ office and explain that you have heard from GLFWDA and we do not approve. Further, I suggest that you print ďA LARGEĒ retraction in your magazine noting your mistake. A simple small blurb buried in the editorís page is not sufficient.


Sincerely,
A very disgruntled reader

Jim Kitson
Davisburg, MI

GLFWDA Trail Ride Committee Chairman
Just look at what I started.:tonka: Good work guys. I am drafting mine right now.
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Old January 8th, 2008, 08:30 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by UP_ROKTOY View Post
I hear what you are saying. I guess what I am getting at is not everyone knows closed unless posted open. Further if you see fresh tracks or an "established" trail do you always look for a sign that states "hey check out this trail its open"?

My point is there seems to be WAY too many gray areas and these permit runs seem to gray those areas up even more....
Another question along these lines. Is the 'two wheel drive rule' in any way like the navigable waterway rules?
What I mean is if a two wheel drive car is able to go down a trail only five or six given days out of the year, it was still able to do so and therefore the 'road' should be open to all vehicular travel. Much like being only able to float a log down a waterway a couple days out of the year (normal high water line) makes a stream considered navigable.

Just thinking out loud......
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Old January 8th, 2008, 08:34 AM   #105
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As far as I'm concerned, Jim is 100% correct.

In my opinion, the forest road definition thats currently on the State of Michigans books should be considered the single most serious problem all full sized 4x4 vehicle use is now facing, SOS licenced or not.

The way its begining to sound, to me, if a 2 track, by-way, trail or road (for lack of a better term) is NOT, by definition, deemed to be a forest road by local DNR law enforcement, [ie..NOT Passable in 2WD] and does not have any other qualifiers assigned to it, like an ORV trail marker, County Road Sign etc. Then as I'm begining to under stand it, that trail/byway is no longer to be considered an open road and can be closed to all further traffic. Its the DNR Law Enforcement Division's means of closing any now open 2track, trail, path, road etc.. on State Forest Land to full sized vehicular traffic as they see fit; actually they can close it to any kind of Off-Road traffic as far as that goes. Basicly, the local CO can bypass, at will, by invoking the forest road definition; the now existing Upper Peninsula's "open unless posted closed" laws/regs on any trail, 2 track, path or road within their jursdiction.

Talk about a gray area..... The way I see it,, unless some counter action is taken, any CO, on any given day, can issue a ticket or close a road on a whim. A person could legally run a road on Monday... Get a ticket on Thursday and return to see the whole thing bermed off and closed on Saturday. I realize its an extreme example in its brevity... but thats what happened to the Clear Lake here on Drummond in a short period of time. As I understand it, the same process is happening to other roads/trails on State Land across the U.P.

Without a better understanding of just how a "Forest Road" is truely defined on a State wide basis... or obtain a better understanding of just when the definition can be applied, or which user group it is actually going to be applied too.. {I did not hear of a single Hunter getting a ticket this past fall for using their 4x4 pick-up trucks on any of the same trails the Full Sized 4x4 folks were ticketed on this past summer} then in my opinion, each of us better check with their local CO to see what kind a mood he's in before they take their next Sunday ride into the backwoods.
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Originally Posted by Renegade II View Post
Another question along these lines. Is the 'two wheel drive rule' in any way like the navigable waterway rules?
What I mean is if a two wheel drive car is able to go down a trail only five or six given days out of the year, it was still able to do so and therefore the 'road' should be open to all vehicular travel. Much like being only able to float a log down a waterway a couple days out of the year (normal high water line) makes a stream considered navigable.

Just thinking out loud......
My head hurts.
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Old January 8th, 2008, 10:14 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade II View Post
Another question along these lines. Is the 'two wheel drive rule' in any way like the navigable waterway rules?
What I mean is if a two wheel drive car is able to go down a trail only five or six given days out of the year, it was still able to do so and therefore the 'road' should be open to all vehicular travel. Much like being only able to float a log down a waterway a couple days out of the year (normal high water line) makes a stream considered navigable.

Just thinking out loud......
From discussion I've had with DNR and examples of tickes I've seen written I'd say it would be 180*. Meaning it must be traversable a mojority of the year. Snow and temporary flooded conditions were two examples given in the letter the DNR sent to GLFWDA, Now if we could only find the letter!!!!!!!!!
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Old January 8th, 2008, 10:20 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade II View Post
Another question along these lines. Is the 'two wheel drive rule' in any way like the navigable waterway rules?
What I mean is if a two wheel drive car is able to go down a trail only five or six given days out of the year, it was still able to do so and therefore the 'road' should be open to all vehicular travel. Much like being only able to float a log down a waterway a couple days out of the year (normal high water line) makes a stream considered navigable.

Just thinking out loud......
Looking at it from the fact that the "2 wheel drive" thing is left up to interpretation of the officer present at the time of the supposed infraction one would have to say no, not the same.

This is the biggest problem with the 2 wheel drive law, it is up to the officer to determine if grandma's Buick can traverse the road or trail. If this officer is from the city (no offense to city dwellers) he believes Buicks can only travel hard pack, maintained, or even blacktop surfaces only. Sure this sounds a bit extreme and naive to think, but I bet it is not that far out of line with some of the new hires within DNR law enforcement.
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Old January 8th, 2008, 10:42 AM   #108
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it all comes back to the 2wd law sooner or later :tonka:
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Old January 8th, 2008, 03:14 PM   #109
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Good work with the letters guys... Let us know the response!

Now the next question: Should we send tons more of the emails to C&D so they don't blow off the letters saying it is just a couple over-sensitive people... ? I know that this does not look good for them (or us because of their mistake not to research their guide) and this is a circumstance where if done right and get the retraction we could get some good PR out of the deal. I would hope they take this as seriously as we are.
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Old January 8th, 2008, 03:32 PM   #110
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It always gets their attention when more than one or two letters arrive on a subject. I still remember when I caught one of the 4X4 rags winching a vehicle out with a cable wrapped around a tree. You'd would have thought I was a tree-huugging eco extremist by the way they replied to me.
So, the more the merrier.
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Old January 8th, 2008, 04:53 PM   #111
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Grenade has been launched.....We'll see if they respond.

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Dear Mr. Craig Hoffman and Editors of Car & Driver:
re: Mudpuppies article

I just finished reading the latest Car & Driver article and I was deeply disappointed by the actions exhibited by the writers under your guidance.

Great Lakes Four Wheel Drive Assn has worked for many years with State and Local DNR Officials in an effort to change the public perception that 4 wheelers are nothing but mud-bogging environmentally irresponsible yahoos! That article has set the progress back a few years and gave environmentalist one more nail for the coffin.
Besides violating numerous state laws with regard to being in the water with the vehicles and driving on closed trails, the actions dipicted by yourself and C&D have given the general public the idea that they can just drive right out on to the rocky beach or down any forest road without legal ramifications. That simply is not true. Those actions alone would have cost your group thousands of dollars if the DNR would have caught you.
You of all people, with all your awards for environmental responsibility, should know better than to drive a vehicle out on sensitive piece of land like the edge of the lake or go thrashing through a forest road without regard to it's effect on the surrounding ecosystem.
That act is akin to driving a golf cart across a soggy fairway or over a green. You certainly wouldn't do that, would you?
While you weren't necessarily in the pictures, you were the guide and defacto ambassador of 4 wheeling for that outing. It was your responsibility to keep the the writers within the bounds of the Tread Lightly principals. These are the credo which GLFWDA, MSG 4WD Club, Jeep Jamboree, Drummond Island Offroad Club, and others that use Drumond Island for recreational activities adhere to.
On a final note, wouldn't Turtle Ridge ORV Park been a more applicable location to showcase 4WD vehicles as it is the one legal place to play on Drummond Island?

For future reference Great Lakes Four Wheel Drive Assn or the Drummond Island Offroad Club members who are knowledgeable in the ORV laws of the State of Michigan would have served as outstanding guides and would have done so if we had been contacted.

GLFWDA can be reached via their website at www.glfwda.org
Drummond Island Offroad Club can be reach via the Turtle Ridge Offroad Park www.turtleridgeorv.com
Tread Lightly Information can be found at www.treadlightly.org

Respectfully,
James Mazzola
UFWDA Ambassador Member
GLFWDA Lifetime Member
kb8ymf@juno.com
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Old January 8th, 2008, 04:59 PM   #112
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Good work with the letters guys... Let us know the response! Now write yours

Now the next question: Should we send tons more of the emails to C&D so they don't blow off the letters saying it is just a couple over-sensitive people... ? I know that this does not look good for them (or us because of their mistake not to research their guide) and this is a circumstance where if done right and get the retraction we could get some good PR out of the deal. I would hope they take this as seriously as we are.

I think the more letters sent the better chance we get some sort of response from them.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 07:35 AM   #113
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For those of you that couldnt find the magazine here a link to the website with the article and pictures: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...yota-rav4.html
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Old January 9th, 2008, 09:26 AM   #114
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For those of you that couldnt find the magazine here a link to the website with the article and pictures: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...yota-rav4.html
Thanks for the link - these pictures are very Suspicious.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 09:31 AM   #115
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For those of you that couldnt find the magazine here a link to the website with the article and pictures: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...yota-rav4.html
They also ran a pic in the printed version of about every vehicle stuck along with it's review but they aren't on the 'web.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 10:21 AM   #116
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20' from the water??


not sure what this is, looks like a good size puddle, or small lake?

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Old January 9th, 2008, 10:48 AM   #117
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not sure what this is, looks like a good size puddle, or small lake?

I think that was on the trail they manged to get about all of them stuck on.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 12:23 PM   #118
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I think that picture is just a good sized puddle/flooded trail. Usually though, in my experiences the puddles on drummond in the trails are a lot deeper than that. its kind of hard to tell.
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Old January 9th, 2008, 01:24 PM   #119
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I wouldn't have heart burn over that picture. It looks like there is some vegitation on the left and being 6-8" deep it's more like a temporary flooded trail. It's being driven at a reasonable speed and this type of trail is something the DNR has told us is OK to travel down.
Just glad NOT to see 14 foot roostertails coming out the sides! Something all magazines are famous for.
Now if I could only find that letter from the DNR telling us that.......
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Old January 9th, 2008, 02:50 PM   #120
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That was my feeling on it too. I think the picture of the ford shows it going down marble head stair steps. I really cant tell though, if it is than that is clearly illegal.
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