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Old January 4th, 2008, 01:45 PM   #61
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Things at Drummond were easy going and as long as u were not being stupid they left u alone. Then came some STUPID morons and went on protected species land (that was marked) and that got the DNR angry, so they got blinded by rage and things changed.
That's way every thing at Drummond is up in the air.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 02:01 PM   #62
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You can have a million responsible four wheelers but it just take one idiot to ruin it for everyone.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 02:27 PM   #63
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Things at Drummond were easy going and as long as u were not being stupid they left u alone. Then came some STUPID morons and went on protected species land (that was marked) and that got the DNR angry, so they got blinded by rage and things changed.
That's way every thing at Drummond is up in the air.

If you are talking about the Maxton plains area I don't buy it. The local police and DNR both felt it was a local, not a visitor.
GLFWDA and other local people (including Muddypaws, Drummond and Steve Walker) offered to help with a cleanup and have been in close contact with them. (I was not part of the cleanup campaign but I know about it.)

The closing of shale beach and other areas started before this issue happened.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 04:41 PM   #64
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Here's a couple.

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Old January 4th, 2008, 04:43 PM   #65
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I didn't think they would be that small. Sorry!
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Old January 4th, 2008, 05:17 PM   #66
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So does the one pic show them all parked out in the lake? Wonderful.:miff:
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Old January 4th, 2008, 05:30 PM   #67
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Those pics arent shale beach, im not sure what that is maybe pilot cove? I dont see anything wrong with them stuck(or just sitting) in a water hole on a trail but I dont like how close they are to the lake. Looks like they are even in the water in the last pic.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 06:21 PM   #68
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They are not in the water, but they are very close (couple feet).
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Old January 4th, 2008, 08:55 PM   #69
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Polit cove has been inacessible for a couple of years now.
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Old January 5th, 2008, 09:10 AM   #70
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Maybe our Drummond Island contacts, (Jarhead, Skip, Mike O, Walker, etc.) could ask the DNR what they think of the pictures. Afterall, if they say it's OK, we may have more data to help us understand what our limits are on Drummond.
However, it is determined that they crossed the line, both Car and Driver and their uninformed guide (Craig Hoffman) should be sent a letter explaining the laws of Offroading Michigan.
jim-kb8ymf

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Old January 5th, 2008, 01:48 PM   #71
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Maybe our Drummond Island contacts, (Jarhead, Skip, Mike O, Walker, etc.) could ask the DNR what they think of the pictures. Afterall, if they say it's OK, we may have more data to help us understand what our limits are on Drummond.
However, it is determined that they crossed the line, both Car and Driver and their uninformed guide (Craig Hoffman) should be sent a letter explaining the laws of Offroading Michigan.
jim-kb8ymf
I 2nd that. Excellent idea.
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Old January 5th, 2008, 09:47 PM   #72
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Polit cove has been inacessible for a couple of years now.
Are you thinking Glenn Cove? That was bypassed a few years ago because it was a muddy beach that people couldn't stay off of, but you still drive right by Pilot Cove on the way out to Marble Head.

I'd guess somewhere near Pilot Cove, maybe on the north side of it. But definitely not shale beach. Also seems mighty suspect for its legality.
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Old January 5th, 2008, 09:51 PM   #73
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I checked out the article today,(Barnes & Noble) definately suspect like you say Johnny J.
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Old January 6th, 2008, 09:50 AM   #74
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Exclamation GLFWDA VENTURE OFFROAD advertisement discussion

Alrighty, I took an extra special look at the ad in light of the supposed controversy. (Thanks for the support Pat)

The main large picture is probably on the beach during Jeep Jamboree last year since Venture Offroad video taped the event.
In this picture I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that there was probably some green on the other side of the vehicle.
The picture is also deceiving if it was taken where I think it was because that beach is a "rolling" beach of limestone & they are parked on a hill with a dropoff to the water.
So they're not really that close to the lake.

The picture on the upper right looks to be ascending MarbleHead.
If that is true then my guess is he took that photo during the Jeep Jamboree.
Jeep Jamboree & MSG pull permits for their events on the island & MarbleHead was included in those permits.
Thus they had permission to be on the steps when the picture was taken.

Currently the steps are off-limits while we are working with the DNR to redesignate the entire trail all the way down to the edge of the cliff.
The DNR has the ability to allow use of an area not normally allowed when issuing an event permit.

I have no positive idea where the other two photos are from, but I would say they weren't taken on Drummond Island since both vehicles are flying flags on the front.

Hopefully that helps quell that part.

I'm still trying to find the magazine article. I went to B & N yesterday & they didn't have it, plus were clueless as to when it would come in...

Could someone please send one of the really good scans to me directly?
The ones on site are to hard for me to read.

president at glfwda dot org

Thanks,
-Skip-
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Old January 6th, 2008, 05:28 PM   #75
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My Brother just told me about this post. I havn't been online for a few days ..so I had not seen it until a few minutes ago.

I really don't know much more than any of you as what occured. (The Car and Driver article) However, I do know Craig Hoffman.. and I can honestly tell you he really does not know a damn thing about the Island's trails or about any rules and regs as it pertains to ORV's. He's in charge of the golf course at the Rock. He's one of those fellows who tends to believe, (at times) that his pile don't stink. (Now thats only my opinion, I could be wrong) Still, just guessing mind you, but knowing he was involved.. I also tend to doubt he'd trouble himself to ever ask any of the DI club members or anyone that really knows the island trails for some advise.

That being said, I believe I can also go on record and say none of the DI Off-Road club members knew anything about the C&D outting, or were involved in any way ... at least, to the best of my knowledge.

So,, that fact also excludes an event permit. I never spoke to Pat Hallfrish about this topic. Maybe Kyle (the local CO) looked the other way,, when they drove the stairsteps ....because it was Car and Driver... Most likely, he wasn't around when they did.

When I was talking to my brother AL on the phone,,(who had the magazine article in front of him) He said the beach pic didnt look like shale beach... To me, It sounded like they may have been out around the plywood camp, but I'm just guessing. Hoffman could have taken them down to one of the Privately owned sections of shore line for that matter; ... either way,, The law states you have to stay up above the high water mark. Then again.. since Hoffman doesn't know and/ or care about any ORV Rules/Regs... I'm thinking he could have also let them drive down the beach out at Sitgrieves Bay.

This whole Car and Driver affair is exactly why the local DNR unit manager,, or folks at the Tourist Assocation always refer these type folk/writers to someone in the DI Club. Most likely Car and Driver contacted the DI Resort .. and they in turn, excluded anybody that really knows the trails or anything about wheeling... But then, thats really no surprise to me.

As to some of the other issues/questions I saw in this thread. ie.. ORV routes on Drummond.. the process is still moving forward as to my last conversation with Hallfrisch. Not smoothly.. but it is still going forward. At this point, I can not say what the route will look like ,, I do know, that working together with folks from GL4WDA and the Jeep Jamboree, the DI Club submitted a proposed map of ORV "friendly" forest roads and ORV routes. I do know meetings have been held within the DNR to work out a system. Because of vacations, I have not talked to Pat Hallfrisch in over a week, but I plan on doing so this week coming up. Still, I have had a number of conversations with Mike Olmstead (Jeep Jamboree) and Pat Hallfrisch about how to address various DNR departmental issues brought up by Law enforcement and Wildlife Division ... to date, nothing has been a show stopper. The guys from Great Lakes have also been a big help.. I don't want to downplay their role in this process by any means.

As to the rest, illegal activities,, well, Drummond is what it is,, Its used by a lot of different kinds of User Groups,, Some are more than happy to point out any infraction of the law. Thats why its so important to establish an clearly marked ORV route system . With a little luck that will happen this coming season.

Just saw the picture attachments for this thread... My guess: Looks like Sitgrieves Bay. Not to far from the snowmobile bridge. No matter...its not a good place to be.

Last edited by WalkerDI; January 6th, 2008 at 07:01 PM.
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Old January 6th, 2008, 07:22 PM   #76
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Thanks for the info WalkerDI.
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Old January 6th, 2008, 08:08 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKIP View Post

The main large picture is probably on the beach during Jeep Jamboree last year since Venture Offroad video taped the event.

The picture on the upper right looks to be ascending MarbleHead.
If that is true then my guess is he took that photo during the Jeep Jamboree.
Jeep Jamboree & MSG pull permits for their events on the island & MarbleHead was included in those permits.
Thus they had permission to be on the steps when the picture was taken.Which is ridiculous, so some uneducated not knowing person such as myself sees fresh tracks going to an area the weekend after said jamboree, I assume its a well traveled legal trail, I get a ticket.

I see a picture of said obstacle, find directions, go there, get a ticket.


Currently the steps are off-limits while we are working with the DNR to redesignate the entire trail all the way down to the edge of the cliff.
The DNR has the ability to allow use of an area not normally allowed when issuing an event permit. Why exactly would a permit be issued for a group but then illegal the rest of the time?
Not a bag on anyone other then the DNR really, but it seems like a stupid concept, either something is illegal or its not right?

Why close something "some" of the time?

I can understand seasonal closures. But I don't understand "open for such and such event"
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Old January 6th, 2008, 08:44 PM   #78
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Not a bag on anyone other then the DNR really, but it seems like a stupid concept, either something is illegal or its not right?

Why close something "some" of the time?

I can understand seasonal closures. But I don't understand "open for such and such event"

Think of the commercials where you see the vehicle tearing through the mud or racing down a stretch of road. It's not always private property they're on. Sometimes they do a photo shoot with a $$$ permit. (closed course doesn't always mean the road is closed when they put it at the bottom of the commercial) Also think of logging in the public forests... $$$ wins...
I know of a place here in S.E. Michigan that is a public park, but would do special use photo shoots for the Big 3. Sure would be nice if John Q. Public was allowed to use the park to wheel. (You can be sure 98% of us couldn't afford what it cost to line the pockets that allowed that but still would exclude the public at large.)

Flipside

Also think of it this way, they closed the Clay Pits off to MSG's DOA a year or two before they blocked them off to everyone else. For some reason an organized event with extraction points set up was deemed more damaging than an unorganized groups of people who were known to go in as far as they could in 2 wheel drive with the skinny pedal smashed to the floor. (yes, I'm giving the worst example I remember, who'd read a lame one?)
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Old January 6th, 2008, 09:05 PM   #79
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As to the rest, illegal activities,, well, Drummond is what it is,, Its used by a lot of different kinds of User Groups,, Some are more than happy to point out any infraction of the law. Thats why its so important to establish an clearly marked ORV route system . With a little luck that will happen this coming season.
Yes it is, very important! It would be awesome to see that happen by this coming season, im planning a trip up there probably sometime in july. But if it doesn’t happen by then (im not holding my breath) there is always turtle ridge to fall back on for some good legal wheeling fun. I do love running the state land trails and seeing all the scenery though, this will be my third year going up there. It is disheartening to see all the closures in just two years time. I hope everyone working on it is able get the trails re-designated soon!

Thanks for all the info WalkerDI!
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Old January 7th, 2008, 06:00 AM   #80
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I know of a place here in S.E. Michigan that is a public park, but would do special use photo shoots for the Big 3. Sure would be nice if John Q. Public was allowed to use the park to wheel. (You can be sure 98% of us couldn't afford what it cost to line the pockets that allowed that but still would exclude the public at large.)
Story is that this is now closed to the big 3 also.
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