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Old January 3rd, 2008, 07:16 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post

JohnnyJ commented further up about shale beach and he knows it better than I.
I re-read the thread and I stil don't see 100% if the shale beach itself is closed. Skip said you can't go past the green line, but the green line doesn't represent the waterline as it used to (due to water levels dropping).

If the shale beach is infact closed, than there is some illegal wheeling in one of the pics in the new issue of the boondocker I just received :tonka: Kind of ironic.... and even illustrates even more the fact that no one knows what is legal and what is not.
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Old January 3rd, 2008, 07:50 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Bones View Post
I re-read the thread and I stil don't see 100% if the shale beach itself is closed. Skip said you can't go past the green line, but the green line doesn't represent the waterline as it used to (due to water levels dropping).

If the shale beach is infact closed, than there is some illegal wheeling in one of the pics in the new issue of the boondocker I just received :tonka: Kind of ironic.... and even illustrates even more the fact that no one knows what is legal and what is not.
The pic you are refering to is an add by a supporting business member, not an official GLFWDA you can go there becuase the picture appears in the associations publication. If Skip, the GL pres. and MSG member who put's on DOA says you cant go beyond the green line than that is good enough for me.

I see no "irony"
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Old January 3rd, 2008, 08:12 PM   #43
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I couldn't get the scanner to cooperate yet. I will try again in a bit.
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Old January 3rd, 2008, 08:29 PM   #44
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but if you hang your hat on the ORV route tactic, the route must be posted with the orange confidence markers. Are they?
Yes most of the trails I ran just last summer were marked with the orange triangle markers.


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Quite frankly, it appears that there has been quite a bit of lenience on DI with the rutted roads, log jam and previously the clay pits and it is probably about to change.
Your right unfortunatly, these places are going to be taken away without us even having a word to say about it. All the obsticals on the island have always been "gray areas" but that has always worked out just fine. And now sense the island is seeing more and more offroad traffic they will be shut down. And not because people are causing problems but because its easier to do that instead of maintanig and monitoring the areas. Like the clay pits, how are you going to hurt a big pile of clay? or marble head there may be a little errosion but not enough to cause problems. Same with shale beach, its a pile of rocks you wont even see the vehicle marks in a month or two. We need to try and get some of these areas set in stone as designated orv routes before they get taken away for good.

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Old January 3rd, 2008, 08:56 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Bones View Post
I re-read the thread and I still don't see 100% if the shale beach itself is closed. Skip said you can't go past the green line, but the green line doesn't represent the waterline as it used to (due to water levels dropping).

If the shale beach is in fact closed, than there is some illegal wheeling in one of the pics in the new issue of the boondocker I just received :tonka: Kind of ironic.... and even illustrates even more the fact that no one knows what is legal and what is not.
I see Colorado and Silver Lake in the articles.
Like Ironman, I figure you must be talking about one of the background pictures used in Venture Off Road's advertisement (?).

I met the owner at the Tread Lightly! training seminar Venture hosted.
He's a heck of a nice guy . . .and a conscientious wheeler too.

If that's Shale Beach (I couldn't say because I haven't been there in many years) and if he didn't have a permit (Being a stand-up guy, I would figure he probably did), then I'd think he probably doesn't realize the possible issues surrounding the photo.

Being a certified Tread Lightly! instructor, I'd bet it would only take a short conversation with him to have the situation rectified. I'm sure he wouldn't want to present anything improper.



I agree though, it's NOT easy figuring out what's legal and what's not.
I've been trying for years and even today, we're still asking United's Attorney, Carla Boucher, for Legal Opinions to help clarify some of the rules. Federal land, State land, County roads . . . different areas with different rules (or are they?).


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Yes most of the trails I ran just last summer were marked with the orange triangle markers.




Your right unfortunately, these places are going to be taken away without us even having a word to say about it. All the obstacles on the island have always been "gray areas" but that has always worked out just fine. And now sense the island is seeing more and more off road traffic they will be shut down. And not because people are causing problems but because its easier to do that instead of maintaining and monitoring the areas. Like the clay pits, how are you going to hurt a big pile of clay? or marble head there may be a little erosion but not enough to cause problems. Same with shale beach, its a pile of rocks you wont even see the vehicle marks in a month or two. We need to try and get some of these areas set in stone as designated orv routes before they get taken away for good.
Triangles aren't enough.

The CCC 24" Cycle TRAIL System and the 50" ORV TRAIL System are both marked with triangles too. Their triangles will have ORV TRAIL on them, rather than ORV ROUTE (The system for all ORVs [us]).


GLFWDA, is working with the Drummond Island Off Road Club, DI Tourist Assn, DI Resort Assn, Jeep Jamboree, and a whole host of others to ensure that the system gets re-designated "AS IS".

For right now, things appear to be going as well as can be expected.
IF THIS CHANGES, GLFWDA WILL put out a plea to all wheelers to send letters and make calls to help us make sure get it gets done right - but not until it's needed. HOPEFULLY it won't be necessary.

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Old January 3rd, 2008, 09:28 PM   #46
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The pic you are refering to is an add by a supporting business member, not an official GLFWDA you can go there becuase the picture appears in the associations publication. If Skip, the GL pres. and MSG member who put's on DOA says you cant go beyond the green line than that is good enough for me.

I see no "irony"
Surely GLFWDA has final say in the ads and pictures posted in their publications. You mean I could rent a page and post naked women wheeling illegally in there and there was nothing GLFWDA could do?

And I'm not sure how an advertisement that shows illegal wheeling in a publication meant to promote legal wheeling, expand legal trails and grow a nation sport isn't ironic.... The laws in Michigan are so poorly written and leave so much room for speculatation that people who are trained in "tread lightly" and legal wheeling see a picture of a Jeep parked on a shoal beach (which is illegal aparently) and think nothing of it, since 50% of the people say it is legal, and 50% say it is not
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Old January 4th, 2008, 07:20 AM   #47
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GLFWDA, is working with the Drummond Island Off Road Club, DI Tourist Assn, DI Resort Assn, Jeep Jamboree, and a whole host of others to ensure that the system gets re-designated "AS IS".

For right now, things appear to be going as well as can be expected.
IF THIS CHANGES, GLFWDA WILL put out a plea to all wheelers to send letters and make calls to help us make sure get it gets done right - but not until it's needed. HOPEFULLY it won't be necessary.
Sounds good, I did not know that about the orv signs thanks for the information. Hopefully a plea to all wheelers won’t be necessary but if it ends up coming to that I will definitely be on board!
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Old January 4th, 2008, 07:32 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Bones View Post
Surely GLFWDA has final say in the ads and pictures posted in their publications. You mean I could rent a page and post naked women wheeling illegally in there and there was nothing GLFWDA could do?

And I'm not sure how an advertisement that shows illegal wheeling in a publication meant to promote legal wheeling, expand legal trails and grow a nation sport isn't ironic.... The laws in Michigan are so poorly written and leave so much room for speculatation that people who are trained in "tread lightly" and legal wheeling see a picture of a Jeep parked on a shoal beach (which is illegal aparently) and think nothing of it, since 50% of the people say it is legal, and 50% say it is not

I'm one of those responsible for reviewing the Boondocker before it goes out for print.

Sorry I missed it.

To be honest, I never even looked at that picture, specifically.
I saw the ad and was quite appreciative to have a new supporting business, nothing more.

I guess I'm guilty of being desensitized by big advertising. It's so 'ordinary' to see 4x4s portrayed in rustic conditions, that I don't even think about where specifically a location is and what the laws are for that particular area. Heck, I have no idea what the rules are for Indiana, or Wisconsin, or California - I've never been there to wheel. If a shot were posted of something as tame as a parked Jeep in one of those States, I'd have no idea if it were in a legal, or illegal, location.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 07:45 AM   #49
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Bones you bring up a very good point. The other point is this permit wheeling, I dont understand how we can get a permit to wheel areas that are otherwised closed, take pictures for advertising, the run itself, etc. Share those pictures with others, and then expect others to always know that was a "permit" run and was only open on special notice.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 07:50 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by UP_ROKTOY View Post
Bones you bring up a very good point. The other point is this permit wheeling, I dont understand how we can get a permit to wheel areas that are otherwised closed, take pictures for advertising, the run itself, etc. Share those pictures with others, and then expect others to always know that was a "permit" run and was only open on special notice.
Very true.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 09:12 AM   #51
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I think you need to be careful in relying on advertisements to determine what is and is not a legal wheeling opportunity. Not to pick on Jeep, but many of their ads depict professional drivers splashing through streams, slinging mud, etc. under controlled or "closed road" stuations. The picture in the Boondocker does not show illegal wheeling - it shows two Jeeps parked on what looks like Shale Beach. No date is given (and we all know law enforcement practices on DI have changed from time to time), no circumstances are explained, and frankly I don't think it should be. I'm not saying don't question this picture in our publication, or another pitcure in a different publication. But please don't jump to the conclusion that a picture depicts an illegal act without knowing the facts and circumstances.

Like Trail Fanatic, I am also a recently trained Tread Lightly! Tread Trainer, and I am also part of the group responsible for reviewing the content of the Boondocker before it is released. I didn't see then, and I don't see now, any reason that picture should have been removed. The fact that someone has questioned it means we will need to verify with Offroad Ventures that the picture was taken under appropriate circumstances, and if not we will take corrective actions.

The folks at Car and Driver should have turned their legal team loose on MI ORV laws before they hired a guide and sent a bunch of SUV's to DI to get dirty. I've wheeled some of those trails without being part of a permited event, and passed smiling, waving DNR COs along the trails that are now effectively closed to full-size vehicles until we can get the trails remarked as routes. It's not only that the laws are sometimes confusing, it is made worse by the fact that different districts and different CO's choose to enforce some things at some times in some places and not in others.

And Bones you may not rent ad space in the Boondocker with pictures depicting naked womend illegally wheeling - but if you need a cameraman for the event I am sure we can get some volunteers together!
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Old January 4th, 2008, 09:41 AM   #52
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I agree with what you said 100% phittie1100.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 09:45 AM   #53
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I've wheeled some of those trails without being part of a permited event, and passed smiling, waving DNR COs along the trails that are now effectively closed to full-size vehicles until we can get the trails remarked as routes. It's not only that the laws are sometimes confusing, it is made worse by the fact that different districts and different CO's choose to enforce some things at some times in some places and not in others.
Just last summer my friend and I were driving on the state land on drummond and lost GPS signal. Well we pretty much got lost and ended up on what we think was a snowmobile trail. Probably not legal but it was starting to get late and we were pretty sure it would take us out to M-134. Besides at that point we would have been happy to run into a DNR officer whether we were in trouble or not. The trail did take us to M-134 and while we were parked there airing up our tires three DNR officers in pickup trucks passed us, they just waved.

So we dont get in trouble for driving on a snomobile trail but if we are caught on marble head we get a $300.00 fine? I dont think even the DNR officers enforcing the laws really know what is legal and what isnt. I hope we can get the trails designated as orv routes soon, that way there will be no confusion.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 10:41 AM   #54
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I still haven't gone to the store to look at the real pics in question.

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I re-read the thread and I stil don't see 100% if the shale beach itself is closed. Skip said you can't go past the green line, but the green line doesn't represent the waterline as it used to (due to water levels dropping).
The green line "rule" should keep you out of trouble based on what the DNR has written in the past.

As has been stated, what is legal and illegal on DI seems to be somewhat grey based on what has and has not been allowed (read: not ticketed and/or ok'd by event permit) in the past.

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If the shale beach is infact closed, than there is some illegal wheeling in one of the pics in the new issue of the boondocker I just received :tonka: Kind of ironic.... and even illustrates even more the fact that no one knows what is legal and what is not.
As was stated earlier, the pic is from an ad and not a GLFWDA story or event.

Further, I just went and looked at the pic, and I can't tell where exactly that picture was taken. Based on how packed the rock is, I don't think it was shale beach. Maybe the videos show more info, but there is no way with just that pic in the ad to say they were someplace illegal.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 10:43 AM   #55
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Has anyone seen this in the stores yet?
I checked in a few the last couple of days & haven't had any luck...
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Old January 4th, 2008, 11:02 AM   #56
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I havent been able to find it in stores either. I would just like to see the article, I think it is cool that car and driver would be interested in comming to drummond to test vehicles.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 11:37 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by phittie1100 View Post
And Bones you may not rent ad space in the Boondocker with pictures depicting naked womend illegally wheeling - but if you need a cameraman for the event I am sure we can get some volunteers together!

I know how to take pictures . . .

:tonka:
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Old January 4th, 2008, 12:12 PM   #58
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Has anyone seen this in the stores yet?
I checked in a few the last couple of days & haven't had any luck...

Mine came in the mail last week. I usually get it before it is on the stands. I will do my best to scan it tonight.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 12:22 PM   #59
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Mine came in the mail last week. I usually get it before it is on the stands. I will do my best to scan it tonight.
I am a subsciber also. Is got a new blue ZR-1 (I like the old name "Blue Devil better!) on the front.

I will give the scanner another try.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 01:22 PM   #60
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Just saw the article here at work, I don't know the areas in mention, but I personally think better judgement could have been used.
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