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Old December 7th, 2007, 01:57 PM   #21
RockyMtnMike
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You're only reinforcing my belief that most Americans aren't qualified to vote.

You say Rudy isn't qualified to run, so let me ask you, what qualifies Hillary?


Please do us all a favor, don't vote.

Listen, I never said that Clinton was qualified either but I think that she is the lesser of the two evils. If this is such a trickle down effect then it really shows how the this Republican admin has no idea how to run a country. I guess G.W's performance from his first term is now in full effect during his 2nd term and the verdict is out. George will probably go down as one of the worst President's this country has ever had. Like I said before I vote for who I think is going to do the job. I voted for Devos because I thought Michigan needed a guy like that in office, it's too bad he didn't win. When it comes to President we don't need another George Bush and that is why I'm not voting for Rudy. Come election day I will be voting for the Dems and it may even be a straight ticket.
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Old December 7th, 2007, 02:33 PM   #22
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X2 on Rudy - I just don't trust him, although I'd take the uncertainty of a slimy Rudy over Hilly, because I know exactly where she stands.

Frankly, none of the options really lights my fire.
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Old December 7th, 2007, 04:00 PM   #23
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Listen, I never said that Clinton was qualified either but I think that she is the lesser of the two evils. If this is such a trickle down effect then it really shows how the this Republican admin has no idea how to run a country. I guess G.W's performance from his first term is now in full effect during his 2nd term and the verdict is out. George will probably go down as one of the worst President's this country has ever had. Like I said before I vote for who I think is going to do the job. I voted for Devos because I thought Michigan needed a guy like that in office, it's too bad he didn't win. When it comes to President we don't need another George Bush and that is why I'm not voting for Rudy. Come election day I will be voting for the Dems and it may even be a straight ticket.
Did you read Duffman's post? In it he talked about the trickle down effect, I say you should go read it.
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Old December 7th, 2007, 06:58 PM   #24
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Did you read Duffman's post? In it he talked about the trickle down effect, I say you should go read it.
Yea I read it, and like I said Bush is on his second term so what he should have acomplished in his first term should have carried over to his second term and things should have been getting better.....right? I mean this trickle down thing just does exist and Bush hasn't done anything right in either term. Whoever gets in is going to have a ton of shit to clean up after this sneaky, grinning, rich bastard leaves. I also agree that neither canidate looks very good but I just can't give the Republicans another shot at trying to fix this country, another 4 years of stupid decisions is going to cause me to lose my way of living.
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Old December 7th, 2007, 08:07 PM   #25
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What's gonna lose you you your way of living is (1) an auto market where (outside this general region) American cars are considered unreliable and "not cool" and (2) NAFTA (which, btw was signed into law by Bill Clinton).

The first thing is beyond the reach of any President, although several (including Hilly) have spoke of radically raising the CAFE standards which will punish the Big 3.

A friend of my wife's was telling her that she can't wait for Bush to get out of office because then the UAW will get a better contract. WTF? I asked her if Kerry had been elected would the Big 3's legacy healthcare costs have gone away? Read the key quote I included earlier:

In the past decade, the AFL-CIO has lobbied Congress on three major issues of any importance to union members:

(1) Oppose the North American Free Trade Agreement;

(2) Oppose permanent normal trade relations with China;

(3) Support drilling for oil in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

The unions lost every vote. Demonstrating his savvy political skills, the head of the AFL-CIO, John Sweeney, repeatedly throws the federation's support to political candidates who opposed labor on all three issues...


I don't know who I like. I don't like Rudy, Romney is too packaged, like a John Kerry. Ron Paul has too much of a nutjob about him, and Huckabee is too much of a preacher. McCain seems to be the man, but I can't tell if his heart is in the game. Hillary is the devil, Obama is too flaky, green, and seeking of approval from everybody (Jimmy Carter again?), and as far as Edwards is concerned, I couldn't vote for a man who seriously "channeled" an unborn baby in a courtroom to win a case.

Is Lyndon Larouche still alive?
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Old December 8th, 2007, 07:12 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by RockyMtnMike View Post
Listen, I never said that Clinton was qualified either but I think that she is the lesser of the two evils. If this is such a trickle down effect then it really shows how the this Republican admin has no idea how to run a country. I guess G.W's performance from his first term is now in full effect during his 2nd term and the verdict is out. George will probably go down as one of the worst President's this country has ever had. Like I said before I vote for who I think is going to do the job. I voted for Devos because I thought Michigan needed a guy like that in office, it's too bad he didn't win. When it comes to President we don't need another George Bush and that is why I'm not voting for Rudy. Come election day I will be voting for the Dems and it may even be a straight ticket.

So what you're saying is that you are voting to punish Bush?

Look I am the first to agree the Bush has not been the best president, but I'm in the automotive field and I've done really well in the last 4 years.

How? I think it's because of the choices I made. Instead of having children, buying a big house and new car I couldn't really afford; I put off having children, kept my 1200 sq foot house and my 7 year old Cherokee and put my money in my 401k and my IRA's. Guess what? Since 2004 I have seen and average of 21.62% return on the 401k and 11.5% on the IRA. I am living within my means and have money for a rainy day.

I saw what was coming and prepared for it. I've survived ~18 rounds of layoffs; I'm the last man standing now at work. I survived because I worked harder than everyone else, did a better job, and updated my skill set to the ever changing market. I don't have a union to protect me; I had to rely on myself, that's how I like it. My job will to go to India eventually and I'll be ready because I choose to be ready. I learned a skill I can take to several places in the country that is independent of Automotive when the time comes.

What I am getting at is that you are where you are because of choices you made. You relied on the UAW to shelter you and that's what they wanted, but in the end it isn't helping you. It's not because of who the president is or how that affects the UAW. It's because the UAW has given you a false sense of security and entitlement. The are promising the same. It's not real security, it's only enslaving you to them, giving them power over you.

The automotive world has been changing for many many years now, haven't you seen it coming? Do you think a change to a in the white house will suddenly make everything better in Michigan? Manufacturing is going over seas and it isn't coming back, if you're not ready now you better get ready soon.

I hope you don't think I am attacking you personally, I'm not. I just want you to see the reality of the situation. No matter who is elected to the white house it won't change the path that the automotive world is going down. So get ready.
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Old December 8th, 2007, 11:01 AM   #27
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... What I am getting at is that you are where you are because of choices you made. You relied on the UAW to shelter you and that's what they wanted, but in the end it isn't helping you. It's not because of who the president is or how that affects the UAW. It's because the UAW has given you a false sense of security and entitlement. The are promising the same. It's not real security, it's only enslaving you to them, giving them power over you.

The automotive world has been changing for many many years now, haven't you seen it coming? Do you think a change to a in the white house will suddenly make everything better in Michigan? Manufacturing is going over seas and it isn't coming back, if you're not ready now you better get ready soon...
Very well put.

The real impending tragedy of our region is the number of good folks who are counting on the UAW or some politician to "bring back the good old days" when the UAW is living on borrowed time. The lavish payscales and benefit packages the UAW negotiated worked when 90%+ of cars (and the parts in them) sold in North America (at the time the world's biggest market) were built by UAW members. Now that barely 50% (or probably much less when you take parts content of "domestic" cars and all the "domestic" cars built in Mexico) into account, it just doesn't work any more. Combine that with the potential for the biggest market to move to Asia (China) and it doesn't look good for the current UAW members.

I'm encouraging my kids to [1] learn a skill not easily outsourced to India/Phillipines/Indonesia/China and [2] plan on living and working outside MI.

I was interviewing a person recently (man am I hiring some high-end auto business people lately who never would've dreamed of working for a boring utility) who has a key role opening a new GM assembly plant in Mexico. Before the new plant was even finished, they figured out that they had already lost their cost advantage to China/Indonesia/Phillipines, and had to start adding more automation and lean processes to try to make up the cost difference. If Mexican plants can't compete cost-wise, how can a UAW plant?
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Old December 8th, 2007, 11:27 AM   #28
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I don't have much time to give my full response but there is a problem with this county when someone who makes 7 figure numbers and only pays 18% income tax and a hard working middle class worker makes enough to live a normal life and provide for his family has to pay well over 30%. This whole issue is more than just the two parties going at it and neither living up to then things they say their going to do. I know you said you weren't attacking me personally and that is fine but you also talk like you know me and you don't. I am a UAW worker but I'm not the type to live paycheck to paycheck. I've always budgeted on a 40 hour work week and any extra goes to IRA's, money markets and saving for my kids education. This entire government needs to get off their asses and start making decisions that will help our country as a whole survive. I'm not saying they need to provide for us because that is not what I want. I think there needs to be monitering on serval issues and one being Welfare. People shouldn't be able to get comfortable collecting this money and never better their situation. Hospital's shouldn't be able to charge insurance companies $70 for 2 Tylenol's, The oil companies shouldn't be making BILLION dollar profit's each year when it is a must need for almost every American right now. Like I said it's not just the Republican's or Dem's. Rich or poor we are all in this together and changes need to be made. I'm going outside now to put up all of my Christmas lights so I can run up my energy bills so I can pay too much on my next bill but that is my own decision and it isn't something that I have to do it is just something that I want to do and I can afford to do so.
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Old December 8th, 2007, 11:30 AM   #29
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There is another thing that I forgot to mention about this poorly ran county. Our soldier's are being hurt and killed each day and since we are not officially "AT WAR" They are getting screwed when it comes to disability money. Our government isn't doing anything about it either, they don't even want to talk about it. During our last War (Desert Storm) We were only at a declared war for 40 days, so if you were hurt any other time you were just S.O.L.
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Old December 9th, 2007, 02:31 PM   #30
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I don't have much time to give my full response but there is a problem with this county when someone who makes 7 figure numbers and only pays 18% income tax and a hard working middle class worker makes enough to live a normal life and provide for his family has to pay well over 30%.
Where did you get these numbers?
Here's a link to the truth about who pays all the taxes....

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/income...hopaysmost.htm

here is just one bullet point from the link...

Taxpayers who rank in the top 50 percent of taxpayers by income pay virtually all individual income taxes. In all years since 1990, taxpayers in this group have paid over 94 percent of all individual income taxes. In 2000, 2001, and 2002, this group paid over 96 percent of the total.


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This entire government needs to get off their asses and start making decisions that will help our country as a whole survive. I'm not saying they need to provide for us because that is not what I want. I think there needs to be monitering on serval issues and one being Welfare. People shouldn't be able to get comfortable collecting this money and never better their situation.
I totally agree social programs don't work.

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The oil companies shouldn't be making BILLION dollar profit's each year when it is a must need for almost every American right now.
Don't be fooled by the raw numbers.
I'd encourage you to look into the oil companies "profit margins". You'll find it's a very reasonable 7-10%.

This article is from 2005 but it's just as true today....

http://www.businessandmedia.org/news...ws20051102.asp

Quote....
For example, Exxon’s profit margin for its high-earnings quarter (dividing $9.9 billion by revenue of $100 billion) was almost 10 percent. But a look at Fortune’s Global 500 list from July 2005 shows that is not unusual – and some companies surpassed that in earlier quarters. Johnson and Johnson showed profits of almost 18 percent in the July report, while Bank of America enjoyed more than 22 percent.
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Old December 9th, 2007, 05:49 PM   #31
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but there is a problem with this county when someone who makes 7 figure numbers and only pays 18% income tax and a hard working middle class worker makes enough to live a normal life and provide for his family has to pay well over 30%.
Amen.

The income tax program doesn't work (i.e. too complex with too many loopholes) and we need to get to a flat tax or consumption tax (i.e. federal sales tax). See http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthr...&highlight=taxand http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthr...hlight=welfare

for some brilliant :chiefwoohaw: ideas.

And wars suck, because people get killed, crippled and hurt. However, I don't see politicians from any party doing much to help them out benefit-wise (i.e. rotating reservists out one day before they're considered active duty, etc...). Again, it isn't the President (irrespective of party) who drafts laws.
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Old December 10th, 2007, 07:37 AM   #32
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I agree that the war issue isn't just the Republican's fault but these are the men and women that are willing to lose their lives to protect ours and they should be taken care of. Our government needs to step up to the plate and do whatever it takes to make sure they are taken care of.

A flat tax rate is just what this country needs. It doesn't matter how rich or how poor, we all put our pants on the same way.

You know if the Dems wanted to grab a bigger share of votes all they would have to do is take a stand on moral issues. There are a ton of people out there that only vote Republican because they say they are against abortion and same sex marriage. Most of the Democrats don't even want to bring these issues into discussion. I think they are realizing that they are going to have to take a stand to get the votes.

I know it sounds crazy but I almost wish we could give a trial run to the 3rd party because I can't stand anyone for this election.
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