Can I drive my full size rig down a quad trail in michigan if I don't hit any trees? - Page 3 - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > 4x4 Land Use > Rules, Regulations, Trail, and ORV Park Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

greatlakes4x4.com is the premier All Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 18th, 2007, 10:15 PM   #41
kb8ymf
Not as old as Whiterhino
 
kb8ymf's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-01-06
Location: Dryden,Mi.
Posts: 1,085
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by phittie1100 View Post
But is a weighted hook illegal on a 50" trail?
Yeah, but I'll bet they wouldn't take to kindly to snagging a quad with a winch hook! But sure would make for some interesting pictures!
Sowhatthehellwerewetalkingabout?
j-kb8ymf
kb8ymf is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old September 18th, 2007, 10:20 PM   #42
steveo
In the band!
 
Join Date: 03-30-07
Location: montana/wyoming
Posts: 20,293
iTrader: (6)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

50" trails, the ability to drive a full size orv on them, and the DNR's abuse of the power we give them.
steveo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2007, 09:05 PM   #43
samuraijunkie
Remeber this?
 
samuraijunkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-26-07
Location: Kalkaska
Posts: 767
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Is anyone else confused after reading 3 pages of this???/ so is the answer you can as long as you can fit down the orv trail? or you can not go down the orv trail if you can fit?
samuraijunkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2007, 09:13 PM   #44
clarkstoncracker
lol
 
clarkstoncracker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-03-05
Location: OC - MI
Posts: 42,431
iTrader: (40)
Mentioned: 95 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to clarkstoncracker
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by samuraijunkie View Post
Is anyone else confused after reading 3 pages of this???/ so is the answer you can as long as you can fit down the orv trail? or you can not go down the orv trail if you can fit?


I dunno either
clarkstoncracker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2007, 03:26 PM   #45
upchuck
Senior Member
 
upchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-16-07
Location: grand rapids, Michigan
Posts: 1,100
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

I'm just staying off the 50" trails, I took one in out of boredom off of 37 to the west, south of Peacock and it quickly narrowed down and I'm tire wedged pretty good between stumps, hoping I extract myself before some pissed quad with a cell fingered me. The state routes are lame, but do serve as a good way to negotiate to the next watering hole.
I can barely swing gas, let alone some $200 fine or something
upchuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2007, 09:01 PM   #46
mojo
Wha Happen???
 
mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-17-07
Location: Roseville, Michigan
Posts: 209
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via MSN to mojo Send a message via Yahoo to mojo
Default

I wanna see a family car get down some of the 2 tracks and firelanes around here. I know if some between Kalkaska and TC that have some hills on them that when you get to the top you cant see the fing bottom on the other side. Let's see the conventional car go down those.

So in other words if I buy an orv tag ans slap it on my rig, if I can fit on the trail am I legal?
mojo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2007, 10:05 PM   #47
kb8ymf
Not as old as Whiterhino
 
kb8ymf's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-01-06
Location: Dryden,Mi.
Posts: 1,085
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo View Post
I wanna see a family car get down some of the 2 tracks and firelanes around here. I know if some between Kalkaska and TC that have some hills on them that when you get to the top you cant see the fing bottom on the other side. Let's see the conventional car go down those.

So in other words if I buy an orv tag ans slap it on my rig, if I can fit on the trail am I legal?
At the risk of opening this up again. If you can't drive the road/trail in a 2WD family sedan, and the road/trail does NOT have an orange ORV Route triangle on it, Your illegal and can get a ticket. Lot's of the road up in TC are illegal. The DNR is just a bit lax in some areas and therefore it has been assumed that these roads/trails are legal, The are not.
If you re-read the entire post and others regarding events on state land you will see that there are some difference between state and federal land but even those are subject to interpretation.
If you can't find them, reply here and I'm sure someone will dig them up.
jim-kb8ymf
kb8ymf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2007, 04:38 PM   #48
BlooMule
pew pew
 
BlooMule's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-08-05
Location: a mile from the shithole
Posts: 24,681
iTrader: (12)
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockrat View Post
That's funny, I ran my Irons route for FedEx and they routed me down 5 NF trails. Glad I was in the smaller van instead of the larger 1000 cube vans; either way trail riding and getting paid for it
That's taking "absolutely, positively overnight" to the extreme....

Looking thru my great big MIchigan Off Road Guide it states that the ORV trail-ATV Insignia trail sign identifies "ORV trails, which are maintained for use by ORV's that are 50 inches wide or less. The maintenance standard for this type of ORV trail is 50 inches clear on the ground all the way up to 96 inches in height." Doesn't say it's illegal to be over 50" wide (the book does spell out specific legalities in other areas) it just says it's only going to be at least 50" wide.

The bigger issue, as stated by others, is who can reasonably afford to challenge this in the "ABATE helmet of choice" manner.... i.e. get a ticket, lose a day's pay sitting in court, and likely end up paying the fine anyway....not to mention travel costs... A civics teacher I had in high school way back in 78 told us that most laws are written for the benefit of the state, especially any that have to do with taxes or fines....
__________________
-rw-rw-rw
BlooMule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2007, 04:44 PM   #49
DogMan
Used Up
 
DogMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-28-07
Location: Climax, MI
Posts: 13
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Hey ya'll, a little FYI regarding trails on the Manistee National Forest...

"ORV" is a generic term; an ORV could be a truck, a jeep, a quad, a dirt bike, or whatever. On the National Forest, the ORV trails are open only to ORV's 50" wide or less, and meet the legal definition of an "ATV". If you are bored, you can look up the Michigan legal definition of an ATV, but to paraphrase this means dirt bikes and quads. If you are taking a piece of equipment that is 51" or larger down a trail on the National Forest, then you are illegal. Referring back to what the one guy was saying...the ability to make your vehicle squeeze through does NOT make you legal.

The ORV trails on the National Forest, at least the portions from Baldwin south are marked with orange triangles with a dirt bike or quad icon, and there are usually posts, signs, or maps where trails cross larger roads indicating that it is a trail open to motorcycles and/or quads and is closed to all other motorized vehicles. Bottom line, if you are caught on one of these trails on something wider than 50", you are subject to fines and maybe also a mandatory court appearance. The only things subject to interpretation is how many different things you can be ticketed for...

As far as ORVing on other parts of the forest, if it's legal for any vehicle to drive down it, then you are generally okay; provided you aren't tearing things up...but this is another area subject to interpretation...if a ranger, CO, or other officer comes along and determines that you are damaging resources, then you can be ticketed, even if you are operating a legal vehicle on a legal route.

Bottom line: if you wanna know where to operate an ORV on the National Forest legally, then you need to call the main HQ office in Cadillac (231-775-2421), or one of the district offices in Baldwin (231-745-4631) or Manistee (231-723-2211). On the east side of the state (the old Huron NF portion) there are district offices in Mio (989-826-3252) and the Oscoda area (989-739-0728).
DogMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2007, 08:02 AM   #50
ScOoTeR
hoo dat. wat.
 
ScOoTeR's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-09-05
Location: Howell
Posts: 21,467
iTrader: (35)
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DogMan View Post
If you are taking a piece of equipment that is 51" or larger down a trail on the National Forest, then you are illegal.
Unless you're out logging, then you can run pretty much where you want (within the area the DNR whored out to you) and you can destroy whatever is in your way.
__________________
@clarkstoncracker
ScOoTeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2007, 11:31 PM   #51
BlooMule
pew pew
 
BlooMule's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-08-05
Location: a mile from the shithole
Posts: 24,681
iTrader: (12)
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScOoTeR View Post
Unless you're out logging, then you can run pretty much where you want (within the area the DNR whored out to you) and you can destroy whatever is in your way.
So if I drag a log behind my jeep I'm legal?
__________________
-rw-rw-rw
BlooMule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2007, 06:09 AM   #52
DuffMan
Your Message Here
 
DuffMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: The Ile of Grosse
Posts: 5,837
iTrader: (11)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScOoTeR View Post
Unless you're out logging, then you can run pretty much where you want (within the area the DNR whored out to you) and you can destroy whatever is in your way.
Yeah, those increasingly common clear cuts are pretty attractive, aren't they?
__________________
This is the Pub. Leave common sense at the door.
DuffMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2007, 07:35 PM   #53
ScOoTeR
hoo dat. wat.
 
ScOoTeR's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-09-05
Location: Howell
Posts: 21,467
iTrader: (35)
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuffMan View Post
Yeah, those increasingly common clear cuts are pretty attractive, aren't they?
Trying to find where the goddamned hiking trail went...
__________________
@clarkstoncracker
ScOoTeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2008, 08:23 AM   #54
0llllll0
JeepJohnson
 
0llllll0's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-06-06
Location: Clinton Twp. / Gladwin Mi.
Posts: 679
iTrader: (24)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb8ymf View Post
If the trail is conspicously narrow such that it appears to be designed for a Quad AND you are wider than 50" you 'could' get a ticket. Once again it is subject to 'some' interpetation from the DNR Officer.
The problem come in how the trail was developed. Many <50" trails are really 2 tracks in the woods that had the entrance relocated to go through two trees 51" wide. Once you pass through the strainer, the trail opened up to a old logging road. Wide enough for a full size rig. USFS is notorious for this tactic.
There are also forest roads marked with 'ORV Trail' triangles. If it's got two tracks and obvioulsy shows signs of travel, it's legal to be there. The ORV Trail sign in itself does NOT regulate what size vehicle is allowed on the trial.
Case in point, Look at Drummond. Those roads were marked for ORV Trail because they wanted to allow unlicensed Quads and M/C on the trail. Street legal vehicles were already allowed there. However, due to a total lack of this understanding, the Quad and M/C community believed they were the only ones allowed on that trail. There is some discussion to revise this trail system to alleviate this mis-understanding.
The other rub comes with the fact I do not see in the law where it is illegal for dull size rigs to be on ,50" trails. The law only say's these are the two sizes for vehicles in the woods. It says designed for vehicles <50", NOT illegal for those over 50" to be on them.
The 50" width is a nationwide width. Which is why the Plaris Razor has become popular. 50" wide on the button and sits' two abreast. Much like the old Honda Odysey except update with new technology.

95Geo answered the slippery road condition question. In fact GLFWDA has a letter from the DNR that spells out that situation exactly. We'll get that posted in the very near future.
Relative to the definition of 'conventional'? This is a situation where the law has failed to keep pace with technology. The DNR refuses to remove the 2WD clause from the current law because it was put there to stop the cross country travel that they (DNR) say the Quads and M/C were doing after the original P.A. 319 was passed in the late 70's. It took till 1991 for them to 'figure out a method' to get them back on the forest road. That revision however went un-noticed when the law was revised.
Every time we try to revise it, we get stymied by the DNR. The Legislature always ask's the DNR for their opinion on revision to the ORV law. If the DNR doesn't want it changed, it won't get changed unless we get substantual momentum and leverage from the Legislature.

'Cliff notes for CC' If you fit reasonabally legitimately, your OK. Unless the DNR officer is having a bad day!
Jim-kb8ymf
I know this post is a few months old but the DNR web site http://www.offroad-ed.com/mi/handboo..._use_rules.htm

now states:

"Forest Roads: Hard-surfaced roads, gravel and dirt roads, and other routes that can be traveled by a conventional 2-wheel-drive vehicle designed for highway use (passenger car). Forest roads include fire lanes and logging roads. Forest roads do not include any state, federal, or county highways or roads. In general, forest road means a road other than a county or state road on which a family car can operate without assistance.

Designated ORV Trail: Designated paths or ways that can only be traveled by vehicles that are less than 50 inches in width. An ORV license is required."

So has the DNR updated the “Land use Rules” , since the earlier posts, to clarify this or is it that the “Forest Road” definition trumps the Signed Designated ORV Trails ?

Also, I have seen several posts regarding a letter the DNR sent to GLFWDA regarding slippery road conditions and the use of 4 wheel drive, but I have not seen the letter. Can someone post the letter?

Thanks,
Ken
__________________
Jeepjohnson

"Black Foot" my CJ-7 build

Do you have a YJ ? Is the rear Frame rusted ? Check this out YJ Rear Frame Reinforcement Plates
0llllll0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2008, 09:38 AM   #55
jeepfreak81
81 inches of fun
 
jeepfreak81's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-10-05
Location: Lennon, Mi
Posts: 12,187
iTrader: (21)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to jeepfreak81 Send a message via MSN to jeepfreak81 Send a message via Yahoo to jeepfreak81
Default

I am still trying to figure out how the DNR can make their own rules that are not "LAW" but still enforce them as law.

They do this in other areas as well.
jeepfreak81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2008, 09:48 AM   #56
whiterhino
I'm not old, honest...
 
whiterhino's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-07-06
Location: Davisburg MI
Posts: 21,011
iTrader: (21)
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepfreak81 View Post
I am still trying to figure out how the DNR can make their own rules that are not "LAW" but still enforce them as law.

They do this in other areas as well.
I don't know where it is at but there is a law that states something along the lines that they can make specific rules to support the laws.
whiterhino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2008, 10:49 AM   #57
kb8ymf
Not as old as Whiterhino
 
kb8ymf's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-01-06
Location: Dryden,Mi.
Posts: 1,085
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
I don't know where it is at but there is a law that states something along the lines that they can make specific rules to support the laws.
Directors Order

j-kb8ymf
kb8ymf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2008, 11:03 AM   #58
kb8ymf
Not as old as Whiterhino
 
kb8ymf's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-01-06
Location: Dryden,Mi.
Posts: 1,085
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0llllll0 View Post
I know this post is a few months old but the DNR web site http://www.offroad-ed.com/mi/handboo..._use_rules.htm

now states:

"Forest Roads: Hard-surfaced roads, gravel and dirt roads, and other routes that can be traveled by a conventional 2-wheel-drive vehicle designed for highway use (passenger car). Forest roads include fire lanes and logging roads. Forest roads do not include any state, federal, or county highways or roads. In general, forest road means a road other than a county or state road on which a family car can operate without assistance.

Designated ORV Trail: Designated paths or ways that can only be traveled by vehicles that are less than 50 inches in width. An ORV license is required."
Once again the DNR is making statements that do not reflect what is currently in practice on the ground. For example, In West Branch there are many trails we went on @ SnoFari that were marked ORV Trail but were clearly wide enough for full size vehicles. And some that were not.
TYhere are plenty of cotradicting examples that can be used to refute any citation that might be issued.
I think the general statement that unlicensed vehicles are allowed to travel down those trails would be more correct. ORV Routes that are designated to fit full size vehicles allow us to use 4WD as you can not otherwise. In nearly 99% of the time the vehicles that use Routes are already street licensed. A few of the Razor/Rhino breed of vehicles will also use these as fitting down a quad trail is normally no fun if you can't drive it @ Mach 8.
Quote:

So has the DNR updated the “Land use Rules” , since the earlier posts, to clarify this or is it that the “Forest Road” definition trumps the Signed Designated ORV Trails ?

Also, I have seen several posts regarding a letter the DNR sent to GLFWDA regarding slippery road conditions and the use of 4 wheel drive, but I have not seen the letter. Can someone post the letter?
Thanks for bringing that up again Ken, yohoo, Mr. B...........Could you please bring in the boxes of material so that I may go through them to try and find the letter.
kb8ymf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2008, 12:04 PM   #59
0llllll0
JeepJohnson
 
0llllll0's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-06-06
Location: Clinton Twp. / Gladwin Mi.
Posts: 679
iTrader: (24)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kb8ymf View Post
Once again the DNR is making statements that do not reflect what is currently in practice on the ground. For example, In West Branch there are many trails we went on @ SnoFari that were marked ORV Trail but were clearly wide enough for full size vehicles. And some that were not.
TYhere are plenty of cotradicting examples that can be used to refute any citation that might be issued.
I think the general statement that unlicensed vehicles are allowed to travel down those trails would be more correct. ORV Routes that are designated to fit full size vehicles allow us to use 4WD as you can not otherwise. In nearly 99% of the time the vehicles that use Routes are already street licensed. A few of the Razor/Rhino breed of vehicles will also use these as fitting down a quad trail is normally no fun if you can't drive it @ Mach 8.


Thanks for bringing that up again Ken, yohoo, Mr. B...........Could you please bring in the boxes of material so that I may go through them to try and find the letter.
Thanks Jim excellent explanation! It makes sense now, If the trail meets the forest road definition “can be traveled by a conventional 2-wheel-drive vehicle designed for highway use” but has the Designated ORV Trail signage VS. the sign shown in the attachment, it is o.k. for quads and such that are 50” or less to travel on (with an ORV sticker) but vehicles wider than 50” require a SOS license.

Where as a “ROUTE” allows any vehicle size with a SOS license or without SOS providing it has an ORV sticker, and 4 wheel-drive may be used.

I think I just rewrote what you said…

I have been down many forest roads and found myself on “ORV Trails”, that continued to meet the forest road definition, and have generally got off them as fast as I could to avoid a possible ticket. Now with this new information, and respectfully treating them like other forest roads, its o.k..

Thanks again !
Ken
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	HPIM0424.jpg
Views:	58
Size:	149.6 KB
ID:	21387  
__________________
Jeepjohnson

"Black Foot" my CJ-7 build

Do you have a YJ ? Is the rear Frame rusted ? Check this out YJ Rear Frame Reinforcement Plates
0llllll0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2008, 12:30 PM   #60
TopHeavy
Yikes!
 
TopHeavy's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: New Hudson, MI
Posts: 1,415
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0llllll0 View Post
Thanks Jim excellent explanation! It makes sense now, If the trail meets the forest road definition “can be traveled by a conventional 2-wheel-drive vehicle designed for highway use” but has the Designated ORV Trail signage VS. the sign shown in the attachment, it is o.k. for quads and such that are 50” or less to travel on (with an ORV sticker) but vehicles wider than 50” require a SOS license.

Where as a “ROUTE” allows any vehicle size with a SOS license or without SOS providing it has an ORV sticker, and 4 wheel-drive may be used.

I think I just rewrote what you said…

I have been down many forest roads and found myself on “ORV Trails”, that continued to meet the forest road definition, and have generally got off them as fast as I could to avoid a possible ticket. Now with this new information, and respectfully treating them like other forest roads, its o.k..

Thanks again !
Ken

All of this makes my brain itch.
__________________
Buy My CJ7
TopHeavy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > 4x4 Land Use > Rules, Regulations, Trail, and ORV Park Chat

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:10 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Page generated in 0.68906 seconds with 82 queries