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Old September 22nd, 2007, 01:14 PM   #121
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...Even Trail Clean Ups are organized, so I bet pretty soon we will have to get a permit to pick up other peoples trash on the trails we like to use and keep clean! Am I wrong here?..
Interesting. I would imagine that if your Clean-up 'event' met all the criteria of the Governing body for that particular area, you would need a permit.

Anyway...Good thread. I especially like the 'ask the Ranger' concept. But having worked for the Fed's for 29 years, I can tell you that it's not as easy to become a 'spokesperson' or 'information maven' as it would seem. To most supervisors/managers anyone doing this is 'Representing' the agency. And they (the agencies), have 'people' that do that already. In other words: It's not always prudent (careerwise) to do someone else's job, even if they aren't doing it.

Back to the subject: Don't let this additional paperwork stop you. Get the permit, Get the Bond/Insurance, Get whatever is required. Charge everyone an additional fee for them. Hand out one of those plastic wristbands to every participant. If someone is screwing up and is caught, the Ranger's can identify if they're with your group or just tearing things up at your expense.

I know, it seems like a hassle. But in no way the hassle you'll get if you go forward without them. And like was posted, once you've navigated the obstable course the first time, each subsequent time will be easier/quicker.
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 01:32 PM   #122
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Interesting. I would imagine that if your Clean-up 'event' met all the criteria of the Governing body for that particular area, you would need a permit.
Just and FYI. The way we do it here in California is that the USFS or BLM Rangers GO WITH US, thus making it an official USFS or BLM 'project' and no fees, permits, insurance (other than personal) is required. Plus they teach us stuff to look for and what's legal and what's not.

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Anyway...Good thread. I especially like the 'ask the Ranger' concept. But having worked for the Fed's for 29 years, I can tell you that it's not as easy to become a 'spokesperson' or 'information maven' as it would seem. To most supervisors/managers anyone doing this is 'Representing' the agency. And they (the agencies), have 'people' that do that already. In other words: It's not always prudent (careerwise) to do someone else's job, even if they aren't doing it.
Amen to this! This could be a career ender for anyone not 'authorized to represent' the agency. Trust me, the military is the same way. SO here's what you have to do about it. DON'T put Les or anyone that's actually HELPING US get things sorted out, on the skyline. In other words, if you do something that Les (for example) says is right thing to do, and you get cited for it...don't start dropping his name all over the place. It's his career you're messing with. IF District Ranger isnt the right person to be representing, then lets get the name of who IS, invite them along for the ride and get some real good information.

OH, also, having District Ranger on this website is a HUGE asset, don't SLAM DUNK his inbox with crap. Try doing some research on your own first.


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I know, it seems like a hassle. But in no way the hassle you'll get if you go forward without them. And like was posted, once you've navigated the obstable course the first time, each subsequent time will be easier/quicker.
I PM'd CC about an idea for putting a sticky up about this. We'll see where it goes. I know he gets about 1,000 PM's a day, I understand he won't get back to me this Fiscal Year. This whole concept has prompted me to check with our local ranger about some of this stuff, I'll get back to you what I learn.

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Old September 22nd, 2007, 03:08 PM   #123
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And as for the comment about DNR officers ticketing people on a whim because they don't "like" something... I gotta call that one out because the DNR has to operate within their own laws. It'd be like a cop issuing you a public indecency ticket because he doesn't "like" your haircut.
Have you read our laws? They're written to be so ambiguous that they're pretty much open to interpretation (i.e. "likes"). Our state is not "full-size" friendly. I don't blame the DNR officers for that. The laws need to be reformed so that there is more consistency in enforcement.
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 04:18 PM   #124
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Even Trail Clean Ups are organized, so I bet pretty soon we will have to get a permit to pick up other peoples trash on the trails we like to use and keep clean! Am I wrong here? Are we protected on this first amendment issue?
Shawn...I'm fairly new to this, but we're members of Two Trackers (that put on the Trail Cleanup event) and we had to put signs in our front windows...I don't think they were permits though...I think it was basically proof that we were picking up trash..not dumping it. It's crazy though!
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 06:40 PM   #125
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Have you read our laws? They're written to be so ambiguous that they're pretty much open to interpretation (i.e. "likes"). Our state is not "full-size" friendly. I don't blame the DNR officers for that. The laws need to be reformed so that there is more consistency in enforcement.
I'm getting the hint that the state appears to be 'full-size' prejudice, which is displayed by the ratio of FS trails vs. quad/motorcycle/snowmobile trails. However, it may also be a tribute to the rest of the ORV community being a little more organized than we are.

I've read some of the laws, but I'm not a law student so a LOT of that crap is jibberish to me too. But it seems that issuing citations without foundation is a violation of civil rights. It appears that when I do return home, I'll be spending a lot of time in front of a judge.
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Old September 23rd, 2007, 12:14 PM   #126
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By the way District Ranger,
My bitching is not at you directly. I know you don't write the laws.

I hope you stick around and try to answer questions, when and if you can.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 05:12 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Hackfabrication View Post
Anyway...Good thread. I especially like the 'ask the Ranger' concept.
GREAT IDEA!

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Originally Posted by Nick In Cali View Post
OH, also, having District Ranger on this website is a HUGE asset, don't SLAM DUNK his inbox with crap. Try doing some research on your own first.
IF you do speak with Mr. Russell, please remember that YOU are the face of 4 wheeling during the conversation. Represent us accordingly.

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Shawn...I'm fairly new to this, but we're members of Two Trackers (that put on the Trail Cleanup event) and we had to put signs in our front windows...I don't think they were permits though...I think it was basically proof that we were picking up trash..not dumping it. It's crazy though!
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Interesting. I would imagine that if your Clean-up 'event' met all the criteria of the Governing body for that particular area, you would need a permit.
You bet the TT have a permit - through the Adpot-A-Forest program.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 10:48 AM   #128
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i have cancelled this ride.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 11:21 AM   #129
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I'm getting the hint that the state appears to be 'full-size' prejudice, which is displayed by the ratio of FS trails vs. quad/motorcycle/snowmobile trails. However, it may also be a tribute to the rest of the ORV community being a little more organized than we are.
Ding! I think "little more organized" is an understatement. Hell, the snowmobilers have lobbyists!

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It appears that when I do return home, I'll be spending a lot of time in front of a judge.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 11:25 AM   #130
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i have cancelled this ride.



this is why we wheel in small groups!!!!! and post stufff after we are back home !!!!
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Old September 24th, 2007, 12:40 PM   #131
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i have cancelled this ride.
That sucks, but I understand why. Hopefully you could pm some of us who are intersted in going on a smaller ride some time. I was looking forward to doing some wheeling with everyone and having some afterwards.

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Old September 24th, 2007, 01:19 PM   #132
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blah blah

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Old September 24th, 2007, 01:22 PM   #133
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pesonally id ban the rangers ip address! is it against the rules to surf the web on state time?? some one needs to send a porno virus to him, so his computer locks up with porn on it. they dont want us, in their woods! were damaging his environment. they are not your friend! they dispise you! that ranger can suck a fart out of my ass!
You are an idiot, and you should be banned from this site.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 01:32 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by joe_jeep View Post
pesonally id ban the rangers ip address! is it against the rules to surf the web on state time?? some one needs to send a porno virus to him, so his computer locks up with porn on it. they dont want us, in their woods! were damaging his environment. they are not your friend! they dispise you! that ranger can suck a fart out of my ass!


Heres how I see it. He could have came and informed liv2mx of the legalities of the issue beforehand for free, or he could have showed up at the trail ride, with 4 ticket books in hand.

I think its great that someone on the tax payers dime helps out the tax payers
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Old September 24th, 2007, 01:41 PM   #135
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blah blah blah

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Old September 24th, 2007, 01:44 PM   #136
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i dont see it as help?? if he does help in some way good. im glad! i have yet to see any help from any of the dnr or usfs officers on any site. they lurk on all of them. im all for legal wheeling! they are out to make wheeling illegal, in all forms. this is not help! how did he help?? perhap i missed something?? did you think the permit was gonna be issued?? do you know how much insurance for this event would have cost?? i must have missed something somewhere. there are very few officers left that will give ya a fair shake!
flame away!
Ok. Insurance was already covered.

What the ranger did was inform the group of people to purchase the proper permit (following federal law) and having the route drawn up. The route is required for the permit.

So instead of showing up and (doing his job) and writing tickets, he warned the group prior.

This is just like a police officer calling you to tell you their setting up a speed trap on the expressway, and to watch your speed.

I have no idea how you can cry about someone doing their job. The last I understood, they inforce the laws, not make them.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 01:54 PM   #137
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Ok. Insurance was already covered.

What the ranger did was inform the group of people to purchase the proper permit (following federal law) and having the route drawn up. The route is required for the permit.

So instead of showing up and (doing his job) and writing tickets, he warned the group prior.

This is just like a police officer calling you to tell you their setting up a speed trap on the expressway, and to watch your speed.

I have no idea how you can cry about someone doing their job. The last I understood, they inforce the laws, not make them.

Agreed. Frank, you're off base on this one. Any additional input from a quality source is a bonus. He didn't come on here and say "I'm gonna ticket your ass". Instead, he offered help. We would be alot further along on good relationships if we had more people like him.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 01:58 PM   #138
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"...they are out to make wheeling illegal, in all forms"
How can you support that statement? People using the State & USFS lands are how they make revenue. The intent is not to make revenue by issuing citations, but to make revenue by attracting clubs to the forest.

Another reason for the need for permits is to make the forest & trails available to all forms of outdoor activity to as many people as the land can support. If you were a group of motorcycle riders and want to do a run on the "heeby-jeeby trail" and a group of horseback riders wants to do a trail ride on the same day - on the same trail...can you not see the conflict? This is ANOTHER reason permits are needed - for scheduling.

If you want some more reasons permits are necessary shoot me a PM or ask here... although I'd think it should be becoming clearer. You support legal wheeling...so support the DNR Officers & the USFS Rangers. They're employed to help.

Kelly covered insurance.

It's a matter of getting educated - DNR & Rangers on this site can help with that. Although I'm sure lurking has gone on with MANY 4x4 sites across the nation, if you're a responsible wheeler and play by the rules (which is sounds like you are) it shouldn't be a problem.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 01:59 PM   #139
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i dont think it was help. it succeeded in getting the event stopped. this is what was trying to be done from the onset. he new it takes longer than that to get a permit. out of respect for white rhino ill retract my previous statements. but this was done for a reason. and it wasnt to help.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 02:01 PM   #140
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i dont think it was help. it succeeded in getting the event stopped. this is what was trying to be done from the onset. he new it takes longer than that to get a permit. out of respect for white rhino ill retract my previous statements. but this was done for a reason. and it wasnt to help.
I respect it's your opinion, I just think you're wrong. Agreed to disagree?
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