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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:03 PM   #81
kb8ymf
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Yes, I would love to see this challenged, but who has the resources to challenge it? Maybe kb8ymf can answer this but I don't think UFWDA has ever attempted to fight this.
It's not contestable. No one in their right mind would take this to court, You WILL LOOSE!!!!!!!!
The Associations/Clubs out west have accepted this and follow the letter of the law for every event they have. Just look at all the trouble the guys from Las Cruces had last year with their event.
They (Clubs out west) simple roll the fee into the event charge. It's around $20.00 or so right now for a one or two day event but I'm sure some guys here from out west can collaborate.
It's like Mile High Jeep Club's All-4-Fun week that I went to this year. I think I paid at least $100 for permits alone. And I talked with the organizer, the USFS is talking about raising the fees next year. We were just riding the open trails in San Isabella National Forest, no different than If I were to go drive in the Huron/Manistee or any other Federal Forest. if your 'above' the radar as events are, your going to get attention.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:04 PM   #82
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to the district ranger post #80
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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:05 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by District Ranger View Post
I pulled this from the United Four Wheel Drive web page. This may or may not help but here it is:



U.S. FOREST SERVICE SPECIAL USE PERMIT RULE

Effective August 12, 2004, your club or organization may be required to obtain a special use permit if you have 75 people traveling Forest Service roads or if you have less than 75 people and charge a fee for your event.

OVERVIEW

WHAT WAS THE RULE BEFORE?

Prior to August 12, 2004 your club could hold a trail ride by using roads in your National Forest without having to obtain a special use permit, even if you charged a fee for your event, if your event was limited to the use of roads and you didn’t use any other forest lands such as campgrounds or other areas for “staging”.

WHAT IS THE RULE NOW?

As of August 12, 2004 your club will be REQUIRED to obtain a special use permit (SUP) if you have more than 75 PEOPLE in attendance at your event (either as spectators or as participants):

Even if you limit the use of the forest to Forest Service roads
Even if you do NOT charge an event fee
Even if you DO charge an event fee
IN-DEPTH EXPLANATION

BASIC THINGS YOU NEED TO KNOW
Commerical use: any use or activity where a participation fee is charged OR where the primary purpose is the sale of goods or services.
Noncommercial use: any use or activity that does not involve a commercial use as defined above.
Group Use: an activity conducted on National Forest System lands that involves a group of 75 or more people, either as participants or spectators.
Guiding: providing services or assistance for pecuniary remuneration or other gain to individuals or groups on National Forest System lands.
Recreation event: a recreational activity conducted on National Forest System lands for which an entry or participation fee is charged, such as animal, vehicle or boat races; dog trials; fishing contents; rodeos; adventure games; and fairsl.
WHEN DOES MY CLUB ACTIVITY OR EVENT NEED A SPECIAL USE PERMIT?

Under this new rule your club is required to obtain a special use permit if:
You use roads
, campgrounds, or other lands in your National Forest;
AND

You have more than 75 people attending or participating in your event, even if you do NOT charge a fee.
Note: This includes passengers and children. For example if you have 25 vehicles attending a club ride using roads in your National Forest and those 25 vehicles have 75 people when you count the drivers and all their passengers, then you have “more than 75 people”.
OR

You have less than 75 people if you charge a fee (engage in a recreation event).
You are not required to obtain a permit if you have less than 75 people and you do NOT charge a fee
HOW DO I APPLY FOR A SPECIAL USE PERMIT?
You must apply to the District Ranger or Forest Supervisor having authority over the area you will be using.
You must provide your club name, address, and the name and address of the club contact handling the application.
If you have more than 75 people attending or participating in your event and you do NOT charge a fee you are engaging in a NONCOMMERCIAL GROUP USE.

For Noncommerical Group Use you must do the two items listed above AND
Describe your activity or event
Indicate the location of the event (which roads, areas, or other places within the Forest)
Indicate the number of participants and spectators expected at your event
Include the date, and starting time and ending time of your event
The name of the person in your club who will sign a special use authorization (that person must be 21 years old or older)
If you are charging a fee, regardless of the number of people attending, you are engaging in a RECREATION EVENT.

For Recreation Events you must do the first two items listed above AND
Provide a certificate in good standing if your club is incorporated (if specificially requested by the Forest Service)
Provide eveidence that your club has the financial capability to conduct and end the event
Describe the event, including maps, so the Forest Service can determine the feasibility of the activity, any benefits to be provided to the public, the safety of the event, the lands used, and compliance with laws, regulations, and other orders
Provide any other additional information requested by you in writing from the Forest Service
HOW DO I RECEIVE A SPECIAL USE PERMIT?

NONCOMMERCIAL GROUP USE: If your event is categorized as a noncommercial group use your application for a permit is approved unless you receive a denial within 48 hours of applying for the permit.

A noncommercial group use application must be approved if:
Authorization is not prohibited by Forest Service order or by Federal, State, or local law.
Authorization is consistent with the Forest Plan
The event does not materially impact the resources of the forest
The event will not delay or prohibit use of the area by the Forest Service or other existing uses
The event does not violate State and local public health laws such as sanitation, availability of drinking water, etc.
The event will not post a substantial danger to public safety
The event does not include military training exercises by private individuals or entities; and
A person 21 years old or older has signed, or will sign, the authorization within 60 days of receipt
RECREATION EVENT: If your event is categorized as a recreation event your application permit must be specifically approved or denied by the Forest Service and only becomes effective if signed by both the Forest Service and your club representative within 60 days of receipt.


That pretty much spells it out.. Thanks for the post

Permit needed if over 75 people, including drivers/riders

NO permit needed if the trail ride is 74 people or less, as long as you're not profiting off federal land. Makes complete sense.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:07 PM   #84
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So be it. Get the permit.

District Ranger, thanks for weighing in. It would be great to have helpful input.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:10 PM   #85
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Thank you District Ranger......
We all appreciate you coming on and informing us as the requirement spelled out. Incidentally, those are most likely contributed to the site by our own Carla Boucher, Legislative Advocate for UFWDA.
One more thing, Could you point us in the direction of the .PDFfile for the application. We will include it in our Land Use FAQ's section
Thanks again
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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:11 PM   #86
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Ranger
Best first post ever?

Lv2mx, Non profit event.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:13 PM   #87
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Ranger
Best first post ever?

Lv2mx, Non profit event.
with 74 0r less people involved
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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:15 PM   #88
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District Ranger (do you have a name?)

I didn't see an insurance requirement, has something changed? All vehicles are street legal.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:16 PM   #89
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with 74 0r less people involved
The problem comes in when "planning" for a bigger event, and 50 people sign up for it.. Well, as the time gets closer, 25 of those people invite their friends, and before you know it you have 100 people on the trail ride.

If its only $75.00 for a permit, and no bond is needed, its probably in the best interest of whoever is putting on the event to pull the permit. Not only does it cover you if the event is bigger then expected, but it probably gives a positive vibe to the rangers about the group.

Face it, the DNR reads this site also. We were VERY careful not to have ANY pre-arranged trail rides for the pig gig last weekend. And the groups that went out kept it to 5-8 rigs per group. This was done on purpose as not to have any issues with the DNR.

I did notice a very heavy presence of DNR people out on the trails, via pickups and quads. As far as I know, nobody had any issues.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:17 PM   #90
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District Ranger (do you have a name?)

I didn't see an insurance requirement, has something changed? All vehicles are street legal.
jim-kb8ymf
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showpos...2&postcount=12
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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:19 PM   #91
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with 74 0r less people involved
No,,,, you pay the fee and donate the rest. I'd go for teh Michigan Humane Society but thats just me.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:41 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by kb8ymf View Post
They (Clubs out west) simple roll the fee into the event charge. It's around $20.00 or so right now for a one or two day event but I'm sure some guys here from out west can collaborate.

jim-kb8ymf
The FITD-XVI event Im hoping to go on Sept 28th-30th is a $55 registration fee. But I know some of the guys at Victor Valley 4 Wheelers and they kick some $ up to UFWDA's legal fund. For your $55 you get a dash plaque (not sure if ya'll do that in Michigan or not), breakfast, a goody bag (my buddy got some Staun tire deflators in his bag!) and two runs. They have to deconflict the runs by time because of the back-ups on the trail. This is at the Johnson Valley OHV area (the hammers). Everyone who survives says the $55 is well worth the weekend.

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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:42 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb8ymf View Post
Thank you District Ranger......
We all appreciate you coming on and informing us as the requirement spelled out. Incidentally, those are most likely contributed to the site by our own Carla Boucher, Legislative Advocate for UFWDA.
One more thing, Could you point us in the direction of the .PDFfile for the application. We will include it in our Land Use FAQ's section
Thanks again
jim-kb8ymf
This web site will link you to the application and permit.

http://http://www.fs.fed.us/recreati...mits/forms.htm
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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:49 PM   #94
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Linky no workie! Looks like one to many http's in there. Fixed it. Thanks Les.
Hey CC or Yetti, Let's put this up in the header of the Land Use as a sticky.

http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/permits/forms.htm


jim-kb8ymf

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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:51 PM   #95
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This web site will link you to the application and permit.

http://http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/permits/forms.htm
ya put one too many http://'s in there Les. Thanks for the link, I'll bookmark it.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:53 PM   #96
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So if you do pull the permit, what exactly do the fee's go toward? I mean, I assume funeral homes hafta pull permits when they lead theyre caravan to the cemetary right? Are the police escorts and intersection blocks (so all vehicles can pass) included in the fee's? We should get that crap on a trail ride then!


(alright, maybe not )
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Old September 21st, 2007, 11:57 PM   #97
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So if you do pull the permit, what exactly do the fee's go toward? I mean, I assume funeral homes hafta pull permits when they lead theyre caravan to the cemetary right? Are the police escorts and intersection blocks (so all vehicles can pass) included in the fee's? We should get that crap on a trail ride then!


(alright, maybe not )
So...what you're saying is you'd like to have the USFS give you your money's worth? Maybe get some bears alongside the trail? A couple of Moose 'going at it' as you pass by? I'm J/K.

I'd imagine it goes toward maintenance, reforestation, environmental impact studies and paying the people to go around an suck the crap out of the outhouses.


For Les: I was reading the pamphlet...about applying for a permit. What does this mean?

"Alternatives - You must first consider using nonfederal land. Lower costs or fewer restrictions are not adequate reasons for use of NFS lands. Provide alternative locations for the proposal in your application."

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Old September 22nd, 2007, 12:39 AM   #98
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Just read through the FAQ's and permit application. All seems pretty reasonable. Our State DNR should take a page from this. (hint, hint!!)
Looks like 72 hours advance notice. Non-commercial only if excess $$ is returned to participants. Insurance is still a question in my mind. Old forms (1999) say yes new ones (law revise in 2004 as pointed out in DR post) don't address it.
Fee appears to be between 3% & 5% of fee charged to participant. Or it also indicated a reference to 'established fees' of previous events of that type.
I say Live2MX, go get the form and start the process.
So Les, how much would the permit cost? There is a reference to Insurance. What's the requirement?
Nick,
The reference to 'alternatives' is like asking for use of the USFS land to hold a camp out when a private campground is right next door. You must consider other available resources instead of the USFS land.
jim-kb8ymf

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Old September 22nd, 2007, 12:44 AM   #99
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Thank You District Ranger for stepping up to the plate.
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 02:02 AM   #100
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Thank You District Ranger for stepping up to the plate.
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