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Old September 21st, 2007, 03:42 PM   #21
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I am also getting tired of the thought that these people are spying on here, but when it comes time that a question about legality is asked they can never seem to step in and clarify the rules. It seems like they want us to do bad and then get caught.
they gotta pay the bills somehow.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 03:43 PM   #22
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I am also getting tired of the thought that these people are spying on here, but when it comes time that a question about legality is asked they can never seem to step in and clarify the rules. It seems like they want us to do bad and then get caught.
they dont make any money if we all knew the laws.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 03:45 PM   #23
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Do not cancel it. That is why they make all the rules is to try to make it a pain and scare people away from doing things like this. Then they can shut the trails and such down because nobody uses them anymore. I understand some rules are needed but it is pitiful when you have to drive hours to do any off roading at all. If you have the insurance thing covered I would go ahead and do it by the books just to prove that they are not going to stop people from using the state land that they deserve to use.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 03:47 PM   #24
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I am not going on the trail ride but I think it is bogus that Officer Russell isn't willing to explain to all of us what the law states.

If you are reading Officer Russell, please post link or state the specific law that requires the permit.

BTW, LIV2MX, Do you know how many people were planning on attending? Do not post the exact amount but if it works out, you should charge $10 for the camping, and maybe $5 per person to cover the [gay]permit[/gay].

That is unless you decide to cancel.

But as I said, I was not planning on going to take my suggestion as you will.

Peace out.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 03:50 PM   #25
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I would have no problem with a DNR, US Forrestry Officer, Longarm, or any other person who upholds the law being on the site. But post information. Don't just read and PM somebody saying "You are going to get fined if you do that."
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Old September 21st, 2007, 03:57 PM   #26
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I contacted this ranger, and He, had already contacted a member of GLFWDA for his area, It sounds like he wants to work with us, but there are rules he has to follow by the time line of the Poker Run.
If the GLFWDA member would like to step in, I will let him comment..........I was not privey to his conversation, so I don't want to start any hear say.

I will state, that the officer does want to work this out, and keep his district Properly maintained.

Arron Pm me your phone number, and I can talk to you more about it.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 04:00 PM   #27
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I contacted this ranger, and He, had already contacted a member of GLFWDA for his area, It sounds like he wants to work with us, but there are rules he has to follow by the time line of the Poker Run.
If the GLFWDA member would like to step in, I will let him comment..........I was not privey to his conversation, so I don't want to start any hear say.

I will state, that the officer does want to work this out, and keep his district Properly maintained.

Arron Pm me your phone number, and I can talk to you more about it.
Everything I have read so far this is NOT a organized event... there is no entry fee, nor any other organization other then "lets wheel this weekend."

Basically what I read is even if I do not do the poker run, but I take my jeep and wheel around there I will be ticketed - because I am in the area.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 04:00 PM   #28
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I am not going on the trail ride but I think it is bogus that Officer Russell isn't willing to explain to all of us what the law states.

If you are reading Officer Russell, please post link or state the specific law that requires the permit.

BTW, LIV2MX, Do you know how many people were planning on attending? Do not post the exact amount but if it works out, you should charge $10 for the camping, and maybe $5 per person to cover the [gay]permit[/gay].

That is unless you decide to cancel.

But as I said, I was not planning on going to take my suggestion as you will.

Peace out.

It is not, the amount of vehicles/people, as much as the fact that there are trails being marked in the forest, and mostly Money being exchanged. This by law constitutes an "Event". That is why there is an issue.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 04:02 PM   #29
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Everything I have read so far this is NOT a organized event... there is no entry fee.

Basically what I read is even if I do not do the poker run, but I take my jeep and wheel around there I will be ticketed - because I am in the area.
I posed this question to him directly, ............his reply was that in a group setting, they want to know where you are in the forest,...............for damage control. He however did not make a statement in return, whether he would ticket vehicles in general, while I talked to him on the phone.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 04:22 PM   #30
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you can reach me at 231 869 5359. until 6.30 then 231 425 7482. i can handle it, i just dont want to be harrased the whole time i am on the trail. or pull onto a road and get pulled over for a muddy truck.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 04:22 PM   #31
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The behavior by this individual seems to me like that old term called, "entrapment".
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Old September 21st, 2007, 04:25 PM   #32
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there is no trails being marked and there is no money except for the camping. i have stated in the thread many times that this is free. only charge is to the owner of river city for camping. i also said we are doing groups so no one will get lost and we will not need to mark anything.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 04:25 PM   #33
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I've emailed this link to all emails linked to USFS who are on this site:

http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showpos...&postcount=145


yet to receive a response.

Not sure what else I can do but BEG them to take 10 minutes out of their day.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 04:27 PM   #34
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I've emailed this link to all emails linked to USFS who are on this site:

http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showpos...&postcount=145


yet to receive a response.

Not sure what else I can do but BEG them to take 10 minutes out of their day.
Glad you did that.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 04:29 PM   #35
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i still have not recieved the e mail with the document i need to fill out for the permit.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 04:52 PM   #36
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As a government employee, the Forest Service's whole way of going about this really rubs me the wrong way. They exist to protect the parks while at the same time allowing people to recreate in and enjoy them, and it seems like they're going to such an extreme to do the first that they won't allow the second to occur.

I can't stand Wal-Mart, but that doesn't give me the right to slow up the planning process or give them grief when I receive an application for development. And I certainly wouldn't be doing any of that behind closed doors.

Disappointing.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 05:00 PM   #37
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I have put on events in the USFS Mio Ranger District and the Cadillac Ranger district a few years back, '86-'87. Some of you may have heard of them, they were called 'The Jeep Cup'. These two events sound like they would be very similiar, a poker run and a TSD Rally. I don't have any paperwork left from the events but here are the basic rules we had to follow and the rationale for them:
One think to remember here is that this is Federal and it is DIFFERENT than the State DNR requirements, however some things are the same, i.e. Insurance and 90 application requirement.

1. The participants are using public resources 'over and above' what would be considered normal. This is why a 'Fee' is being charged. Much like using a Pavallion at your local community park. You might have payed taxes to build the facility but assembling a larg group is outside the normal anticipated use.
The State DNR has 20 vehicle or 20 person criteria, the USFS appears to have something around 75. This number was never referenced in my event because we had 200+ people there so we were already over the limit.
2. The liability insurance is a 'catch all' so any damage done by the group can be recouped via the insurance.
3.We had a Application Fee which included paperwork and post field inspection.
4. We also used to have a road bond posting of $250-$1000 depending on how much damage the Officer thought was going to be done. GLFWDA ended up loosing the bond both years due to splashing the water out of some low spots in the road.
5. One thing not mentioned yet is the USE fee. The USFS charged us a fee based upon the # or miles used X the $$ charged regardless of what it was for, X # or participants X some factor + $$$$ you owed the USFS for use of the public property outside it's normal use. And an EVENT is outside what is considered normal. If you sat up on one of the forest roads any afternoon, how many vehicles might go bay you in a single afternoon. Less that if you had an event.
I've got way more to add but want to read some more of the posts to help clarify what has been policy with the USFS in the past.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 05:01 PM   #38
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I'm a little confused about this "permit" or "Event Fee" that they are wanting to get. Is this a USFS thing, or a State thing? Something really is fishy here, because on the DNR site IIRC states things VERY different. So now what, now that maybe the "permit" is payed for, there are also other State "permits" to get or something?

Also, I really thing more people need to look into supporting GLFWDA, this is what they are for, and I know are already looking into this for Allen.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 05:02 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by kb8ymf View Post
I have put on events in the USFS Mio Ranger District and the Cadillac Ranger district a few years back, '86-'87. Some of you may have heard of them, they were called 'The Jeep Cup'. These two events sound like they would be very similiar, a poker run and a TSD Rally. I don't have any paperwork left from the events but here are the basic rules we had to follow and the rationale for them:

1. The participants are using public resources 'over and above' what would be considered normal. This is why a 'Fee' is being charged. Much like using a Pavallion at your local community park. You might have payed taxes to build the facility but assembling a larg group is outside the normal anticipated use.
The State DNR has 20 vehicle or 20 person criteria, the USFS appears to have something around 75. This number was never referenced in my event because we had 200+ people there so we were already over the limit.
2. The liability insurance is a 'catch all' so any damage done by the group can be recouped via the insurance.
3.We had a Application Fee which included paperwork and post field inspection.
4. We also used to have a road bond posting of $250-$1000 depending on how much damage the Officer thought was going to be done. GLFWDA ended up loosing the bond both years due to splashing the water out of some low spots in the road

You beat me to it!
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Old September 21st, 2007, 05:06 PM   #40
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Bottom line, you will need the permit. I'm surprised at the number being 75 since the DNR listing is 20 people. I'm not gonna dig for it on my computer but trust me, I can produce it.

This is one of the reasons GLFWDA promotes runs thru it's membership. We already have the insurance. But, everyone attending MUST be a GLFWDA member. This is not our rule, it's the insurance companies.
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