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Old September 6th, 2007, 11:28 AM   #1
84Scrambler
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Default Interesting Ethanol article

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070906/20070906005793.html?.v=1

I question the motives of the sponsor of this article, but they appear to back up their claims from valid sources. Basically, corn based ethanol is a sham that is causing increased pollution, increased oil consumption, high greenhouse gas emissions, and higher food costs. What were all those benefits from ethanol the government was touting again?
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Old September 6th, 2007, 12:30 PM   #2
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i havent read it yet, but yes, the corn ethanol being better claim is BS. sure its "renewable" but it burns more of the fossil fuels we are trying to "protect" to do so.
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Old September 6th, 2007, 12:32 PM   #3
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Ethanol was supposed to help us rely less on foriegn oil. Plus reduce pollution yada yada yada. Unfortunatly, ethanol contains less energy than gasoline. You will get less mileage out of a tank of ethanol than gasoline.

Plus, the cost of corn has doubled causing cattle farmers to get hurt by the higer corn cost.
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Old September 6th, 2007, 12:59 PM   #4
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Ethanol was never intended to save the earth. The market will find a balance. Cattle are not fed pure corn. Relax.
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Old September 6th, 2007, 01:06 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by smasheromalley View Post
Ethanol was never intended to save the earth. The market will find a balance. Cattle are not fed pure corn. Relax.
Well, a few of my farmer friends constantly complain about the cost of having to feed their animals because of the price of corn. Maybe not pure corn, but is still has an impact on farmers. Relax.
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Old September 6th, 2007, 01:09 PM   #6
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IIRC coal based ethanol is where energy savings are based off in most reports. It is a byproduct of refining coal anyhow so the assesed costs of production is nil.

Again this is IIRC and could be talkin right out my ass
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Old September 6th, 2007, 01:10 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Flexin' XJ View Post
Well, a few of my farmer friends constantly complain about the cost of having to feed their animals because of the price of corn. Maybe not pure corn, but is still has an impact on farmers. Relax.

Because that is what farmers talk about. Weather, machinery, and the price of <insert feed/crop here>. Seriously.
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Old September 6th, 2007, 01:44 PM   #8
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Old September 6th, 2007, 02:16 PM   #9
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corn is one of the most innefficient crops to grow ethanol out of, sugarcane and other plants, like sugar beets and switchgrass produce better yields (or soon will). Also, gasoline is shipped by boat and truck also. Most ethanol refineries are fairly local, so I challenge this.

a by-product of ethanol production is a corn slurry. This is dried and sold as cattle food. I doubt cattle feed prices are higher. If they are I have heard rumors of the government subsidising farmers to NOT use thier land to keep crop prices up. If this stops so will your problem.

energy content of ethanol is less than gasoline, but if a significant portion of that energy comes from the sun, and not from storage in fossil fuels then it is definatley in our advantage to use ethanol.

Ethanol may need fossil fuels to be produced, but they are more readily available and less-often used fuels like natural gas.

Brazil is almost purely an ethanol economy. thier plants burn the left over sugar cane for the heat needed to produce the ethanol. US plants are not this efficient yet. Although there is an ethanol plant that feeds it's corn pulp (whats left after ethanol is made) to cattle in an enclosed place. They harvest the methane the cattle give off and burn it to produce the ethanol. effiency.

It is possible to make BIG horsepower with ethanol. It has an octane rating close to or higher than race gas. turbocharing and supercharging could provided the cylinder pressures needed to make this fuel more efficient. (picture smaller engine, making bigger power, more efficiently that equals less fuel consumption)

The US does not have a mature and efficient E85 economy yet, thats what the subsidies are supposed to stimulate.

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Old September 6th, 2007, 02:54 PM   #10
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You are missing the entire point. Corn ethanol can NOT be economic, no matter how mature a market is or how many subsidies the government thows at it. It takes more energy to make it than you get out of it. Ethanol is a good concept. Corn is just a poor source to get it from.
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Old September 6th, 2007, 04:01 PM   #11
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very poor source. take a look into how many fossil fuels are used in, and to create the fertilizer used. also look at all the equipment used to spread fertilizer, and plant/harvest corn. sugar beets, and soy beans are a far better source. corn also is the largest feeder, taking all the nutrients out of the ground, requiring even more fertilizer. farmers do get subsidized to Grow corn, not stop growing corn. the price of corn is incredibly high right now, and farmers growing corn are loving it. get subsidized to grow it and have it worth far more. they are growing all they can. they are also running strait diesel, not B20 in their equipment or ethanol in their gas tractors. farming is a business.
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Old September 6th, 2007, 05:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smasheromalley View Post
Because that is what farmers talk about. Weather, machinery, and the price of <insert feed/crop here>. Seriously.
Yea...that's why milk prices have doubled also right? Because farmers are whiny lazy bastards.
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Old September 6th, 2007, 07:41 PM   #13
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The increase of corn fields up here has at least doubled. Lots more farmers are turning to corn and I see lots of signs next to the fields advertising ethanol. But there's also a higher demand in corn because the demand for corn burners up here.
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Old September 6th, 2007, 11:08 PM   #14
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the ethanol from corn mandates are nothing more than farm subsities. The net energy gain is next to nothing, if not negitive.
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Old September 7th, 2007, 08:10 PM   #15
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Yea...that's why milk prices have doubled also right? Because farmers are whiny lazy bastards.

Milk prices are not at an all time high, and ethanol is not hte only thing affecting the price of dairy
http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/rbs/pub/jul03/scales.html
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Old September 8th, 2007, 12:43 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
the ethanol from corn mandates are nothing more than farm subsities. The net energy gain is next to nothing, if not negitive.
yep
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Old September 8th, 2007, 07:49 AM   #17
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E85 = More "feel good" BS, like hybrid vehicles.

Politicians can talk "energy independence" and endorse ethanol, making farmers and the supporting industries (fertilizers, seed, ethanol producers, etc...) happy. Jenny can pose next to a new ethanol plant opening and claim that she created jobs. Auto companies can place bright yellow E85 badges on vehicles and be "green" just like Toyota and the hybrid scam they've perpetrated on the public.

The wheel of horseshit goes round and round.
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Old September 12th, 2007, 07:31 AM   #18
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The main goal of E85 is to be able to use the entire corn stalk and leaves and everything, then it would make sense. I think they jumped the gun and started to promote it before it was fully investigated. Electic cars will be the future as soon as batteries improve. Imagine looking under your hood and just seeing a battery and a big-ass electric motor...that's all. You can also have an electric motor at each wheel, no drive shafts, no diffs, no t-case, no tranny. That would kick ass.
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Old September 12th, 2007, 09:03 AM   #19
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Duffman, I rarely disagree with you, but based on data I cannot share ( ), ethanol is not sham and is serious business - at least at GM.

Another interesting bit of information: I was working a media event last month and overheard a popular automobile journalist talking about a survey his company put out to its readers: "

Which car company do you think has the greatest number of flex-fuel vehicles in production?"

The company most people picked was Toyota. Funny thing is, Toyota has ZERO ethanol vehicles currently in production.
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