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Old August 2nd, 2007, 09:14 PM   #21
Buggy_Tim
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Which is it, no special needs or too many? Your arguments have a truly dizzying effect.


To get back to that point: the private sector will always do a job better than the government will. I'm not sure charter schools even qualify as a private sector company since, in the case of Holly Academy; they are run by CMU, a state run school.
Read the statement....they label kids as special needs for the money...they not truly special needs kids that actually need the extra attention.

As for the "run by CMU"....like 94YJ said...you really don't know much about charter schools do you?
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Old August 3rd, 2007, 09:05 AM   #22
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You guys are fighting the rest of us our laughing because you don't get the big picture.

MI IS BROKE AND THERE IS NO MONEY TO HELP FUND SCHOOLS!!! I don't see citizens offering to fork over more tax money to help replace all the former funds that have moved to another state for a job. Until MI can staighten this out and bring in JOBS there is going to be a problem.

The big picture is the lack of $$ in all areas of MI . . ex. schools, fire, police, all public works . . etc.

Hopefully that'll change in ten years or so. I feel for the teachers for all the extra burden but you love to teach and so it won't be so bad.

I really feel for the group in a generation x y z or whatever it's being called this month that is going to miss out on a good education because they needed extra help and there wasn 't anyone to give it to them. (lack of teachers due to lack of funds) I also feel bad for the school system that is loosing potential AWESOME teachers from the state schools (CMU, WMU, EMU) to the likes of NC or FL or GA or any other state because MI can't afford to hire them.

Sad situation all around.
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Old August 3rd, 2007, 10:19 AM   #23
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In 5 years most vocational programs will be closed if something doesn't change. Many are closed or closing already. I am planning to leave the state in the next 5 years because I don't think there will be a position for me. There are states that are offering sign on bonuses for teachers in my subject areas.
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Old August 3rd, 2007, 11:38 AM   #24
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You don't really seem to know what you are talking about. Charter schools in
Michigan have to be "chartered" or sponsored. They can be chartered or created by a university (with CMU doing the vast majority of them), or they can be created by a local school district (somewhat rare.) They are not operated by the university that charters them, but are by the local school district if they charter them. All that it means is that the university kind of oversees their curriculum, and basically gives them a sort of accredidation so they seem legit. They are usually then run by an outside, for-profit, firm. Their are several huge ones in the U.S. They can also be run independently.

Many charters are also only at the elementary level. Why is that you might ask? Because it is cheaper to educate elementary aged kids because they don't require as much technology, counseling, extra-curriculars, administrative support, to educate as high school aged kids do. Is it then fair to compare how kids do at said charter school to the kids at the local public school that must allocate their scarce resources amongst all grades and needs?

The problem I have with your argument about running education like a business is how do you determine if they are being successful? Are they successful if they turn a profit? If so they will not accept any students that might require more money to educate (spec-ed,etc). They won't provide extra-curricular activities that add to the educational experience(music,sports,etc.). They will hire the least qualified (oftentimes uncertified, or fresh out of college) people to work there so that they can pay them less. All so they can turn a profit.

Do you determine success by MME (Michigan Merit Exam...has replaced MEAP) scores? If so, again you have to look at what students they accept? Are they able to deny acceptance to any students? Who do you think they will deny...anyone that can't do well on the test. Will they provide a good well-rounded education or will they simply teach to the test?
I never claimed to know much about charter schools, I only know that the one near me is sucessful, or seems to be.

You have some good points to be concerned about but I don't see anything that can't be resolved.

Off the top of my head.....

If special needs kids are more expensive to educate, then it would cost more to have them attend. Life isn't fair, not everyone is going to be charged the same amount.

If extra-curricular activities are necessary to have college ready grads, then someone will provide that, for a price I'm sure. If it improves their output then other businesses will follow suit or lose students. If it improves output then is was worth the extra money, if not then people will spend elsewhere and extras will be come unnecessary, or done outside the school system by someone else.

Teacher's being qualified(certified) to teach can be regulated by the gov't. Just like a doctor, a dentist, a lawyer etc. This is one of the few reasons gov't exists.

I'd measure success by how many of their student's qualify to go on to college; can they pass a college entrance exam?

Poorly performing students would have a higher rate to pay than the highest performing students. This would help motivate the (paying) parents to be more involved in the education of their children; a better rate for a better performance. Let's face it; education starts at home, and parents are a big part of the problem.

The worry seems to be that those running a “for profit” school will only be concerned with profit and not with output. However what is being glossed over is that a company can't make a profit for very long without putting out a quality product. The competition will smoke them. Profit is balanced by competition.

.....that's just off the top of my head, go ahead and throw some darts at it.
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Old August 4th, 2007, 12:09 PM   #25
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Let's face it; education starts at home, and parents are a big part of the problem.
Ahhhh...finally. If parents were more involved in the education of their children, or even just involved with their children's life, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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Originally Posted by 3-foot View Post
The worry seems to be that those running a “for profit” school will only be concerned with profit and not with output. However what is being glossed over is that a company can't make a profit for very long without putting out a quality product. The competition will smoke them. Profit is balanced by competition.
That is only true for a short time....and only some times. In America, too many people are worried more about the cheapest and not the best. Also, there is a limited number of students to service, and that will limit the number of competitors in the market. Why invest so much to get a small slice of the pie kinda thinking. They want big money fast. So as the competition starts to die out, there will finally be left only one or two choices. Once that happens, quality will suffer in favor of more profit. Happens all the time in the US. Is Microsoft the best? Is it the dominant company? Look at Wal-Mart...same thing.

Education should not be "for profit". All the money available should stay in the school. I don't know a single teacher that doesn't want to do the best they possibly can and doesn't try to be better every year. They do it because they want to, not because of the money.
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Old August 4th, 2007, 12:30 PM   #26
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What gets me is watching Gary Peters (), Lottery Commissioner, making tv commercials saying "Gamble more, 100% profit goes to the schools!":miff:


What people don't understand is that money would be going to the schools anyways, however if you buy lottery tickets the money goes to the schools from the lottery commission instead of the state.

So are you really helping anything? No.. its like paying more taxes.



-Brandon
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