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Old May 4th, 2007, 03:14 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by MTUJeeper View Post
Have you ever seen the ruts from a skidder? HOLY SHIT! How about the skidder they sunk in a swamp off of canal road in houghton, and then got a dozer stuck getting it out (can you say WETLANDS!!). Or the loggers who go down these roads and it is rough as shit, and they are spinning all day long (my buddy is a logger, you should hear some of the stories from him and his buddies).
As far as boyscout goes, there was a group of guys from our club that went to run boyscout when it appeared that it was going to be closed (not a club run). They came across a DNR officer and questioned him if they could go down there, and he had no problems with it what-so-ever. How about when you come to a trail with a bunch of rocks on it? A 2wd car can't make it down there, you are supposed to just turn around? There won't be any erosion taking place. I had one of the founding members of GLFWDA on one of our stocker runs, it was just like one of our usual wheeling runs, and he saw no problems with anything our club was doing. I'm not trying to defend illegal wheeling, but I'm just trying to get these laws in perspective how if the state is benefiting from the money coming in from logging they turn a blind eye, but after these loggers are done and it is already ripped up, they want to call us driving trhough there illegal. You are correct in the fact that the wheeling for us yoopers is completely different than for you trolls. There are plenty of laws out there that don't get enforced (ie, swearing in front of women and children). Thats a Michigan law, make sure you don't do it. Just like none of these laws which you have stated are enforced up here (except for the wetlands one, I watched some stock guy (not in our club) drive down into a swampy area and get stuck, then ticketed by the DNR. I'm not trying to justify breaking of the law, but I'm trying to put it in perspective of why people up here are ignorant (and I'm also venting a little bit). If this is the way its really gonna be I'm getting out of wheeling all together and starting on the monster truck I've been holding off on until after college.
I've said this before......DING, DING, we HAVE A WINNER!
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Old May 4th, 2007, 03:16 PM   #82
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I've been keeping pretty quite about this, but I just have to remark about one thing..........


Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd
As soon as you start spinning the tires, do you pull cable?


No, you turn around and leave -- that's a DIRECT quote form Steve K. at an ORV AB meeting.


If this is the case in this state, we have already Lost, there is no trail riding in Michigan that is legal, Its time to name this state Cali-Michigan.

How did it get this way, who is responsible,...........and How do we fix it?
I'm sorry to say, even though I have a ton of respect for you guys and the work you do to save our trails. I'm afraid its all for naught.

Apparently, what I'm reading from all of these posts is that if a CO or a DNR official wants to give you a ticket you are going to get one, and every time you drive on a two track you are breaking the law because of a tire spin.

All tires spin in dirt!!!!!!! That's the way they are designed.

Does anybody want to buy my XJ or FLareside? I guess I'm done.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 03:25 PM   #83
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MTUjeeper,
I understand you are not trying to be confrontational nor arguementative. You are expressing many of the same concerns and questions that have been debated over and over.

Personally, I believe money talks. Down here, I can show you multiple areas where wetlands have been filled in all in the name of "progress" and "development". I don't agree with it, just stating it the way it is. I frequently explore in northern Canada. The logging in Michigan doesn't even compare to the damage they do up there. They go in and make 4 lane wide roads for miles and miles to get to the latest logging site. And I have seen skidder ruts that have 4" diameter trees growing in them and they still look like they were just made last year. There are 137 windmill going in north of the Soo. You should see the roads that they made for them! But let any of us spin a tire and we are "bad guys". I feel for you and agree with you. That's why we need to fight to keep our land open.

Regarding the Tread Lightly quotes: They don't say "this doesn't apply to Michigan" nor are they discussing laws. They are merely stating the best way to have the lowest impact. If you want to look for contradictions regarding things that are written, you and I could sit down together, spend a week at it and not be done.

Logging in Michigan? Big money dictates special permits. But as I mentioned above, the new forest certification plans are meant to lower this long term impact. It is being pushed by the tree huggers and goes so far as to try to close all human access. Again, it's not just us that are going to be impacted. It is all of the user groups. Hunters, mushroomers, bird watchers, you name it.

A little advise from Ted Nugent: Ted Nugent had a radio talk show down here which focused on hunting laws, access, & stuff. He used to preach that when attending government meetings, don't show up with camo, hunting knives on your belts, etc. No yelling, ranting or argueing. Rather dress well (not in a suit) speak well, be professional, be polite. So, if you guys go to meet the local DNR, please keep that in mind.

Please don't quit and go away. Rather help us to support the sport.

Jim
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Old May 4th, 2007, 03:32 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FORD FLARESIDE View Post
I've been keeping pretty quite about this, but I just have to remark about one thing..........


Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd
As soon as you start spinning the tires, do you pull cable?


No, you turn around and leave -- that's a DIRECT quote form Steve K. at an ORV AB meeting.


If this is the case in this state, we have already Lost, there is no trail riding in Michigan that is legal, Its time to name this state Cali-Michigan.

How did it get this way, who is responsible,...........and How do we fix it?
I'm sorry to say, even though I have a ton of respect for you guys and the work you do to save our trails. I'm afraid its all for naught.

Apparently, what I'm reading from all of these posts is that if a CO or a DNR official wants to give you a ticket you are going to get one, and every time you drive on a two track you are breaking the law because of a tire spin.

All tires spin in dirt!!!!!!! That's the way they are designed.

Does anybody want to buy my XJ or FLareside? I guess I'm done.
So, if they take away your beer are you going to stand for it?
If they take away your cell phone are you going to stand for it?
If they take away your right to hunt are you going to stand for it?
If they take away your right to fish are you going to stand for it?


Do you care about your sport? If so, get involved. Right now, GLFWDA goes to meetings and says "listen to us. We have 300 people and we want places to play". If everyone on this site would stop bickering and join together, we could go to the state and say "we have THOUSANDS of people and we represent THOUSANDS of recreation dollars". Then we could have some impact.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 03:41 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
So, if they take away your beer are you going to stand for it?
If they take away your cell phone are you going to stand for it?
If they take away your right to hunt are you going to stand for it?
If they take away your right to fish are you going to stand for it?


Do you care about your sport? If so, get involved. Right now, GLFWDA goes to meetings and says "listen to us. We have 300 people and we want places to play". If everyone on this site would stop bickering and join together, we could go to the state and say "we have THOUSANDS of people and we represent THOUSANDS of recreation dollars". Then we could have some impact.


Everyday another "right" is taken away from us. You cant win with just one aproach, it isn't possible as long as we have someone with a pen running this state who can write an executive order any (^&(*&(*) time she want too.

You better get some members into the legislative seats, if you want your rules changed.

I can take action sitting on the local planning commission (which I do) and not be a member. But this is the first time, anyone has even remotely contacted me about the legal issues of wheeling in order to do something about it.

The word is not getting to the right people...............somehow we have to fix this. Do you suppose someone could drive a Jeep up Levin's rear-end far enough to get his attention, instead of him spending all of his time going after the war? I personally think you need to start making changes in who you are talking to.
People on this board are good people and don't purposely try to destroy nature. But if we cant use it.............why would it matter? It's time to start doing more then blowing smoke!!!!
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Old May 4th, 2007, 03:48 PM   #86
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Got the money to put those people in the legeslative seats? I don't.

You joined this forum a year ago & have 779 posts. Have you ever looked at anything on this page?

http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/forumdisplay.php?f=38
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=40177
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=41183

and this one
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=20620

Contacted you? Have you asked or looked?

When you say "you", try saying it while you look in the mirror.

We need help here folks.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 03:53 PM   #87
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I posted something in another thread in Land Use. There is a bill in the Senate right now, HR 1975. Its a partial version of that wonderful Roadless Initiative we got to deal with a few years ago from our buddy Al Gore via Slick Willy that was dismissed by GW. It is only affecting Western states but it will more than likely be expanded eventually. Google it for some more info but either way, wrie an emaill to your reps about it.

Its our land to use and if you want to keep it that way you better be heard.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 04:09 PM   #88
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Got the money to put those people in the legeslative seats? I don't.

You joined this forum a year ago & have 779 posts. Have you ever looked at anything on this page?

http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/forumdisplay.php?f=38
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=40177
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=41183

and this one
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=20620

Contacted you? Have you asked or looked?

When you say "you", try saying it while you look in the mirror.

We need help here folks.


As far as Fire tower hill closure, I did my own leg work on that one...........That hill has been destroyed in the past two decades, and is completely impassible with anything less then a class 5 rig.

The public got what they deserved. (the legal 4 wheelers were screwed)

And your last thread post, you should be careful.........I did help you pick up trash two years ago. I had other obligations for this past year, other wise I would have been there.
Like I said earlier, what you guys do is awesome, and you have my respect.
But we are losing faster then you guys are gaining, and we need to get it done, or we are done.
Although paying a membership fee will help with your financial obligations. Its not enough money to change minds in legislation. We need to go talk to the right people.

The problem is that the people who can make changes, are not going to come to us to see how they can help .....................and excuse this metaphor............sometimes you gotta hit the Bull between the eyes with a 2x4 in order to get his attention.
Posting threads are good, but I did not see all of them with the traffic this site has. (and I'm on here every day)

I will PM you, and I will do what I can to help out as much as I can.

Thank You for the discussion.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 04:13 PM   #89
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For what its worth, i just donated my $35 to GLFWDA...via paypal


So then how is the Jeep Blessing legal that is being held tomorrow, just out of curiousity.......

And its funny, i attended a township meeting for Kids in the Mud ORV park that they were trying to get opened up and hell it never even made it the state level it can't get past the local township with a population of like 200 .......so yeah why is Michigan so anti-wheeling when were supposed to be a recreational state lol
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Old May 4th, 2007, 04:14 PM   #90
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I will post the main details from the meeting we have with the DNR. As for being polite and such, of course. Thatís the only way to be taken seriously and get answers.

I will never give up this sport. Its part of my life and what I love to do. I enjoy many things of mother nature, wheelin is a great way to get out in da-bush and see things others never will. I have know our voice needs to be heard. But I guess I never really knew it was this bad. Now I know and sure as shit Iíll do my part.

I do believe as the V.P. club funds pay for my membership as well as the Presidents into GLFWDA. It just hasnít gone through yet.

Oh and one thing I was thinking of doing in our area after talking to the DNR is maybe getting some information about CFA. Maybe a contact number for CFA or local timber companies. By talking to them I, we, could figure out what they will permit on there land.
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Old May 5th, 2007, 12:16 AM   #91
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There's been one thing mentioned in here that I have very mixed feelings about. That's the fact that all of this is Lansing's interpretation and, as stated above, the local CO is the person who's interpretation counts in the field. He's the one deciding to write you up or not. The problem is that COs don't always share the same interpretation.
There are COs who don't have a problem with trails that other COs would have an absolute conniption-fit over.

Should there be uniform interpretation and enforcement?
As VP of GLFWDA I have to say yes. . .
but, I'm not going to be the one to bring it up.
That's because I fear that if we do, the interpretations that are more strict will win out, and those few pockets of slightly looser enforcement will be lost.

When it REALLY comes down to it, it's the Judge's interpretation that truly counts. Just ask Marvin Farley, aka Grandman.

We need a better system. One that provides our form of recreation in a manner that is easily accessible by all residents, without needing to drive 3 hours away to get to 'legal 4 wheeling' that leaves the enthusiast wanting bigger, better, and more.

Bigger, better, and more is readily available here; and to have it dangling like a carrot in front of us, while not providing for full-sized ORVs is almost an open invitation by the State for illegal use. How can it not happen?

I believe that there can be a tremendous difference between what's illegal and what's immoral. Is seriously damaging a stream bed illegal? You bet. Is it immoral? It is in my values system. Is splashing around in an over sized mud puddle that doesn't drain into anything illegal? Probably. Is it immoral? Not in my mind. Not one bit. Especially when there are THOUSANDS of acres of wetlands that are protected "forever".

I digress. It's getting late and I'm bushed.
Must be time to hit it.
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Old May 5th, 2007, 12:57 AM   #92
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I commend everyone on this thread for their comments. I have learned alot about what is considered "legal". My question is where does this leave drummond? Most of the trails there are not 2 wheel trails. Does that mean we should walk to marblehead. I camp out at that end of island 3 or 4 times a year. In fact the trip that a few went on a couple weeks ago required at least 33's and a locker. It looked like a great trip and I would of loved to go. I didnt see anyone commenting to these guys that they shouldnt be posting pics. Im a little confused. I think everyone has a gray area problem. And the question about mesick the mud in mesick is man made. That makes a difference in the eyes of deq and dnr. Great thread. Just had to add a question.

thanks
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Old May 5th, 2007, 01:11 AM   #93
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heck the way i see it and read it. it sounds illegal even to ride my horse offroad now? somethings gotta change and i would be happy to help just point me in a direction i would be usefull.
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Old May 5th, 2007, 01:22 AM   #94
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heck the way i see it and read it. it sounds illegal even to ride my horse offroad now? somethings gotta change and i would be happy to help just point me in a direction i would be usefull.
I would also be glad to help. There are spots north of kalkaska where the horse riders have done more "damage" than the trucks to the trails. I will try to talk some of you in mesick 2morrow. I need to go to bed.
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Old May 5th, 2007, 02:50 AM   #95
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Ok so now I am really lost at what the "laws" are, if I am supposed to be able to do everything in 2-wheel, every trail/ seasonal road/ what not, then how am I supposed to get out to my camp?

I have property in the UP and for much of the year a person can not make it out to camp in 2 wheel, it is all seasonal roads/no waterways around out there but still between the sand and hills 9 out of 10 times you need to spin a tire to make it down the road.

If this is the case that we are legally supposed to follow then in turn the property is a lost cause? This is where I hunt and fish and according to what I have read so far I am breaking the "law" pretty much anytime I go out to camp. The idea of spinning a tire I think needs to be re-worded. I can see the person that leaves it in 2 wheel to try and dig stuff up being wrong. And in the same sense anyone "trying to just tear it up" being wrong but for those that do not live in the concrete jungle a spinning tire is a way of life.
Hell I had to spin my tires multiple times last winter and yes I was in 2 wheel drive, my front wheel drive car, delivering pizza's in the vast UP.
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Old May 5th, 2007, 05:05 AM   #96
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Thank you to MTUJeeper, ckupq, chevytahoe564, and todd for coming on and admitting some responsibility for the video's or afilliation to the individuals shown in them.
Jim, I appreciate the thanks, but I just want to get it out there that I nor my club has any affiliation with any videos posted except for the fact that we attend the same school. I just have to do this to cover the clubs ass. I will admit that I was ignorant to the extent of how SHITTY the laws in this state run by Mrs. Moley our god-forsaken liberal (insert bad word here) of a governor (sorry, had to release some steam there) have become. I've been considering getting out of the sport to start on my own monster truck (I work on a pit crew now) and this just makes it even more appealing. I will gladly stay and fight, but if I have to have it on my mind that I am breaking the law every time I wheel, it kinda takes the fun out of it. I need a few of these...
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Old May 5th, 2007, 07:48 AM   #97
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Those of you that are asking the questions about Drummond and your camps in the UP and so on are asking the same type of questions that are SOOOO hard to pin down. The letter of the law makes it hard to dispute. But then common sense does seem to prevail in certain areas. Like TF said, if they come to a common enforcement, the bet is that we will get the worse end of it.

I also think TF makes a very good point. The majority of us love our land and that's part of the alure. We like being in the woods and don't want to see it destroyed. Big industry and mother nature do far more damage than we could ever hope to do. I look at trails that I ran 30 years ago and they look exactly the same now as then. And I keep saying to myself if no one can even enter the forest, what are we saving it for?

More than once we have been accused of "you guys with big tires tear it up so no one can get thru it". arrrgggg! That is so frustrating since I can literally idle through stuff that a stock 4x4 can't make it through. I'm not tearing it up! In my "moral" opinion, leaving a few ruts on a 2 track do nothing in the scope of what heavy industry does. But getting that through to the lawmakers seems to fall on deaf ears.

I agree we need to get to the right lawmakers and we have been trying to do that with limited funds. With the state of our economy, our problems are nothing to them. And since they are short staffed, the easiest way to monitor us is to simply keep us out. Plus, face it, a ticket is revenue.

I do not have the answer to your questions. I believe that many of the northern CO's use common sense and don't have a problem with anyone driving down a semi muddy trail or a sandy trail.

Keep in mind that this whole thread started because it came up on the DNR agenda. People need to be aware of the ramifications when posting pics and video.

This is not unique to Michigan. If you guys want some insight as to the issues other states are seeing, log onto ufwda.org Browse around there & you will see that areas all around the country are fighting the same type of issues.

Thanks for keeping this thread healty. I only hope that after the hoopla dies down that everyone doesn't just fade away.

Jim
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Old May 5th, 2007, 12:48 PM   #98
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for the full effect mute the google video and play this in the background....


http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=334



hey the dukes of hazzard have nothing to do with this.
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Old May 6th, 2007, 01:54 PM   #99
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Jim, I appreciate the thanks, but I just want to get it out there that I nor my club has any affiliation with any videos posted except for the fact that we attend the same school. I just have to do this to cover the clubs ass. I will admit that I was ignorant to the extent of how SHITTY the laws in this state run by Mrs. Moley our god-forsaken liberal (insert bad word here) of a governor (sorry, had to release some steam there) have become. I've been considering getting out of the sport to start on my own monster truck (I work on a pit crew now) and this just makes it even more appealing. I will gladly stay and fight, but if I have to have it on my mind that I am breaking the law every time I wheel, it kinda takes the fun out of it. I need a few of these...
FYI these laws were in place LONG before Granholm was in office... heck many were closed when the state could not maintain them anymore after Engler robbed the rec funs and moved them to the general budget years ago. This has been happening for a VERY long time, not just in the last 6 or 8 years.

I likely will be at the next ORV meeting. I just hope that old geezer (I don't know his name) doesn't talk about trying to legislate the need for differentials on quads again because 'live axles are unsafe and tear up the land more' I might have to stand up and explain how it is HIS views that is part of the reason that Michigan is in the tank... for this being a recreation state it is views like HIS that are driving tourism away and closing trails.
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Old May 6th, 2007, 02:31 PM   #100
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If this is the case in this state, we have already Lost, there is no trail riding in Michigan that is legal, Its time to name this state Cali-Michigan.
Easy there Flareside... Cali isn't as bad as this yet.

Thus far we don't have any of this silly non-sense going on out here. Sure there's the Sierra Club tree huggers trying to shut down our trails, but the National Forest Service actually works with us to evaluate the trails, determine if the trail needs to be closed for repair and sets a re-open date before the trail is shut down. BUT, we also don't have a lot of illegal wheeling going on because out here there are PLENTY of places to go. You usually don't have to plan vacation time from work to get the level of wheeling you want.

**Okay, another loser joins in**

[Rant] I'm hearing a lot of rehtoric about this subject, going back and forth about what to do, what not to do and how to do or not do it.

First, after reading this post I'm the newest member of the GLFWDA. I put my money where my mouth is (and I really can't afford it, so cough it up people). You'll notice I'm not a paying member of GL4x4.com (I'm living on military pay with child support!) IF GL4x4.com were a club and part of my membership dues went to GLFWDA, I'd consider supporting the site next year when my individual membership is up with GLFWDA. This website is a VERY popular web-group that could be very influential in the state. What's the membership on this site alone... sligtly over 4,000? I realize that GL4x4 is not a 'club' per say but I think it could really support the sport by doing a couple SIMPLE things. CC seems motivated, and deny it as much as you want but there's a 'clique' of wheelers on here that could help too.

1st, gotta spread the word guys. I knew that the offroading in Michigan was endangered but HOLY HELL! I didn't know it was circling the drain like this. I'll be honest; if I hadn't read this thread, I guarantee I would have done something illegal and not known about it. I don't have a full solution on this but the word has GOT to get out on what's legal and what's not. Nobody reads pamphlets handed out when you buy an ORV (cycle or quad) and I know my Jeep didn't come with an ORV laws handout.

2nd, get more involved physically. Do trail clean-ups more often or try to get an "adopt-a-trail" program going. Something you can log hours & member participation and show impact with photographs to the State/DNR. I'd say the first step is getting more people involved. Hell do it in conjunction with trail rides (if there are any legal rides left.)

Ah hell, you've heard it all before. It comes down to who doesn't want to drive two states away just to wheel when your own state shuts it ALL down.

[/Rant]

Last edited by USMC 0369; May 6th, 2007 at 03:22 PM.
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