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Old May 4th, 2007, 07:04 AM   #61
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chevytahoe12348923754375434, i think you should make a point of going to the meeting. since you are going into this area of expertise it would help you understand some more of the workings within the dnr and FS and their inability to listen to reason or input from user groups.

it will probably also help the view they have of the full size user groups, to show up and attempt to own up to doing an "illegal" activity and if nothing else say you're sorry and ask for the law to be more clear in the gray areas would show we arent wreckless with our actions.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 07:20 AM   #62
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Classy. Maybe go to a Quarterly meeting yourself and do something. You know, I don't come on here and "take cheap shots" at GreatLakes4x4 Kelly, maybe try and do the same thing.

Even funnier, you are trying to pass the buck onto GLFWDA "to do something about this". Why isn't GL4x4? Please, provide an intelligent answer void of personal attacks, cheap shots, just straight forward facts. What is GL4x4 willing to do about these videos in question?
Cheap shots? huh?

I'll pm you.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 07:26 AM   #63
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chevytahoe12348923754375434, i think you should make a point of going to the meeting. since you are going into this area of expertise it would help you understand some more of the workings within the dnr and FS and their inability to listen to reason or input from user groups.

it will probably also help the view they have of the full size user groups, to show up and attempt to own up to doing an "illegal" activity and if nothing else say you're sorry and ask for the law to be more clear in the gray areas would show we arent wreckless with our actions.
You make a good point. And I hope he shows up to the dnr meeting. That would be a good showing.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 07:52 AM   #64
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Edit, you yeah this trail is technically on CFR private land. So my question is does the no spin tires law still apply?

That is a fair question that has been debated more than once and I think you can find interpretations both ways. Part of the answer is whether the area in question is in fact a "wetland". If it is, you can not destroy wetlands even on your own property.

Second, and I'm not trying to pick on you here but trying to help answer your question: If it is private property, and it is not yours, and you are not with a property owner, you must have written permission to be there.

So, as an officer could see it, you could be ticketed for operating in an erosive manner, destroying wetlands and trespassing.

As Trail Fanatic said above, most guys enjoy this stuff. But it's not legal. Yes, it used to be, now it's not. Our society and law enforcement is turning more and more towards zero tolerance. Used to be that a cop would drive you home if he stopped you for drunk driving. Now, you go to jail and it costs you thousands of dollars.

The people here who are discussing this are not trying to be jerks or making fun of you. Rather, trying to deal with a situation that continues to perpetuate and is destroying this sport. You guys go out for a few laughs, have a good time and want to show others what great fun you had. In the mean time, people who do this sport as one of their main hobbies continue to have access to fewer and fewer locations.

It is very frustrating.

95geo makes a great point. I know it's a long drive. But if there was any way you could attend the ORV meeting next week in Lansing, especially with some humility, it would be a good thing.

Our current DNR is very unwilling to work with us to reopen anything. If you are the next generation, maybe an open mind would help us all "share" the woods.

I know you said you think you wheel more than most. You are going to college so I suspect you are not a bumbling idiot. Think these thoughts: You are new to this site. You don't know anyone here. You have been driving somewhere between 4 and 7 years. You are wheeling a stock (mostly) truck and consider your wheeling in DNR pickups as a lot of your logged time. In the scope of statistics, you are somewhere in the bottom 5-20 percent (age wise) of the people on this board. You are pretty much talking about wheeling on county or forest roads where 4 wheel drive is needed to cross a mud puddle. Why do I say this? Because in the range of 4 wheeling, that is the limitation of stock vehicles.

Many of us have traveled out of state all over the country, multiple times per year "for years" doing the same type of trail riding in addition to ORV parks, on the approved hard core trails around the country and up in the Canadian bush. We are a group comprised of every type of vehicle from stock to heavily modified to comp buggies. There are people here who eat and sleep this sport.

Every year more land gets closed. Every year somebody new to the sport publishes damning evidence that we are all "red necks out tearing up the land". Every year that same somebody new thinks they know more than everyone else.

If you want to stay in this sport, please make the effort to learn the rules and help us "support the sport".

Jim
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Old May 4th, 2007, 08:55 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Every year more land gets closed. Every year somebody new to the sport publishes damning evidence that we are all "red necks out tearing up the land". Every year that same somebody new thinks they know more than everyone else.
I wonder sometimes if it would further our cause by doing our own self-policing and turning in people who purposefully wheel illegally. I mean in an ideal situation it would show that we are taking responsible actions and would hopefully be considered a good faith effort to keep the trails open that are still open.

Last edited by ckupq; May 4th, 2007 at 08:56 AM. Reason: I'm dumb
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Old May 4th, 2007, 09:17 AM   #66
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I wonder sometimes if it would further our cause by doing our own self-policing and turning in people who purposefully wheel illegally. I mean in an ideal situation it would show that we are taking responsible actions and would hopefully be considered a good faith effort to keep the trails open that are still open.


NOW THAT IS A GREAT THOUGHT!!!

NOTHING LIKE TAKING "MISTER BIG BAD JEEP SURBANITE GUY" AND RENAMING HIM SNITCH
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Old May 4th, 2007, 09:33 AM   #67
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99.9% of this site wheels legally,



99.9% of this site doesn't wheel.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 10:22 AM   #68
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I wonder sometimes if it would further our cause by doing our own self-policing and turning in people who purposefully wheel illegally. I mean in an ideal situation it would show that we are taking responsible actions and would hopefully be considered a good faith effort to keep the trails open that are still open.
That is my line of thinking. If we police ourselfs, it may make the reputation better.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 10:32 AM   #69
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I wonder sometimes if it would further our cause by doing our own self-policing and turning in people who purposefully wheel illegally. I mean in an ideal situation it would show that we are taking responsible actions and would hopefully be considered a good faith effort to keep the trails open that are still open.
Actually there is a National Program that United 4WD Assn has in conjunction with the U.S. Forest called Volunteer Trail Patrol. GLFWDA has a few members on it, Yours truly as is Trail_Fanatic.
TF or one of the members from his club is now coordinating the activities, can you comment please TF?
Here's the link:

http://www.ufwda.org/smf/index.php?board=7.0
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Old May 4th, 2007, 10:37 AM   #70
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NOW THAT IS A GREAT THOUGHT!!!

NOTHING LIKE TAKING "MISTER BIG BAD JEEP SURBANITE GUY" AND RENAMING HIM SNITCH
So, which side of the fence are you on? Do you think wheeling illegally is ok or not? If your comment was meant as humorous then I get it!
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Old May 4th, 2007, 11:15 AM   #71
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99.9% of this site doesn't wheel.
which is 99.9% of the legal wheeling in michigan..
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Old May 4th, 2007, 12:04 PM   #72
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That is a fair question that has been debated more than once and I think you can find interpretations both ways. . .

Jim

Well written, Jim!
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Old May 4th, 2007, 12:06 PM   #73
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I wonder sometimes if it would further our cause by doing our own self-policing and turning in people who purposefully wheel illegally. I mean in an ideal situation it would show that we are taking responsible actions and would hopefully be considered a good faith effort to keep the trails open that are still open.

A LOT if our "self-policing" could also be teaching and informing our fellow users who don't know any better as to what the rules are.

Let's keep in mind that there are different rules for Federal and State lands too. 4WD is allowable on NF level 2 'Roads' (two tracks DESIGNATED as such), but NOT on State Forest Roads.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 12:09 PM   #74
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Ok, I think its time for me to chime in now.

Iím the new V.P. of the MTU Four Wheelers for 2007-2008. And I have a few things to add and ask.

First, boy scout is on CFA land. I believe its commercial forest association or something like that. The logging companies own it but in order to not pay taxes on the land they must keep it open to the public for any form of traffic. Either foot or motor. This only applies when it is not being logged, as soon as they start cutting in an area they can close it down. This is the case of boy scout. So my first question, as most of the land we wheel is CFA land does this no spin tires rule still apply?

Second, our club gets a lot of local complaints for things we have never done. Its just easier to target an organized club to pin shit on then blame the actual culprits. I will say, yes we have spun our tires on boy scout in the past wheelin it while it was open. But it was needed to traverse the trail and get through under your own power. As many of the other trails we run spinning the tires is needed to keep forward movement. So I guess according to this 2 wheel law or rule anything that you want to wheel must be able to be traveled by a 2 wheel drive? I know you could never have gotten a 2 wheel drive down boy scout, so we should have never been there? I was an open trail, run by many of both MTU students and locals. Also many of the other trails we run you could never make it down with a 2 wheel drive, so we cant be there either? If these areas can not be run then I donít see much wheelin here in the Keweenaw that can be done legally. We donít have scramble areas. If I pick trails to run that are accessible by a 2 wheel drive then we are not wheelin. As soon as you start spinning the tires, do you pull cable?

Im at a loss here. Seems this sport cant go on any longer in our area with all the shit that has been hitting the fan. This issue we are discussing as well as others in the Keweenaw.

I question for all reading this thread. Have you ever spun your tires on land that was not on an ORV park, or any of these areas in question besides water areas? I find it hard to believe no one has.

I thought the wheelin we did was legal, but apparently what I thought was wheelin is busting the rules. And real wheelin in MI is 2 wheelin. More info on this topic of CFA land and tires being spun would be great as I donít want to take the club places we should not be.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 12:13 PM   #75
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Actually there is a National Program that United 4WD Assn has in conjunction with the U.S. Forest called Volunteer Trail Patrol. GLFWDA has a few members on it, Yours truly as is Trail_Fanatic.
FT or one of the members from his club is now coordinating the activities, can you comment please TF?
Here's the link:

http://www.ufwda.org/smf/index.php?board=7.0
Yes GLFWDA member and Two Tracker BOD member, Jeff Traynor, is compiling a list of persons wishing to become Volunteer Trail Patrol participants.

Because the program is in its infancy here, we are only accepting people with references to known wheelers with the right attitude. I don't mean this to sound the wrong way, but we CAN NOT afford to have the program derailed before it has a chance to grow. It would only take ONE VTP volunteer caught doing something illegal or 'patrolling' somewhere vehicles aren't allowed and the Program would be scoffed at by Law Enforcement across all Agencies.

If you're interested, PM me and we'll try to figure out how to get you involved while meeting our current stipulations. These stipulations are only temporary, until we can get VTP opperating smoothly on a larger scale.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 12:42 PM   #76
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for any form of traffic. Either foot or motor.
No.

They have the right to close trails to motors, if they wish.
They only have to permit hunting and access, but access doesn't necessarily have to be motorized. Be GLAD that they have allowed motorized there as long as they did!

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. . .as most of the land we wheel is CFA land does this no spin tires rule still apply?
Unfortunately, and as far as I've been able to discern - yes. Just like the helmet law still applies to private land , or the drug laws. It'
s private property, but if an LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) sees a crime being committed he has the right (and responsibility) to enter the land with out permission and address the crime.

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Second, anything that you want to wheel must be able to be traveled by a 2 wheel drive?
On State and CF lands, YES.

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. . .so we should have never been there?
Sorry but, nope.

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It was an open trail, run by many of both MTU students and locals. Also many of the other trails we run you could never make it down with a 2 wheel drive, so we cant be there either?
A trail that is not blocked is not always 'open'. It's only open until a car couldn't run it, then you're supposed to turn around and leave.

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If these areas can not be run then I donít see much Wheeling here in the Keweenaw that can be done legally. We donít have scramble areas. If I pick trails to run that are accessible by a 2 wheel drive then we are not wheelin.
Now you're beginning to see why we're trying SO hard to better our situation - AND why it's so easy for the unknowing to cause unintended trouble for us at the AB meetings.

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As soon as you start spinning the tires, do you pull cable?
No, you turn around and leave -- that's a DIRECT quote form Steve K. at an ORV AB meeting.

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I'm at a loss here. Seems this sport cant go on any longer in our area with all the shit that has been hitting the fan. This issue we are discussing as well as others in the Keweenaw.
NOW you know why it's SOOOoooo important to join GLFWDA and add your membership to their 'numbers' and add your $20 bucks to their coffers - so they can DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

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I question for all reading this thread. Have you ever spun your tires on land that was not on an ORV park, or any of these areas in question besides water areas? I find it hard to believe no one has.
Of course I have.
BUT, that was a long time ago, before I learned better.
AND I LIKED IT!
THAT'S why I'm doing everything I can to improve our situation.

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I thought the wheelin we did was legal, but apparently what I thought was wheelin is busting the rules. And real wheelin in MI is 2 wheelin. More info on this topic of CFA land and tires being spun would be great as I donít want to take the club places we should not be.
THANK YOU for asking how to do it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd sure like to talk with you and your President in more detail.

PM me your phone #s so I can give you a ring???
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Old May 4th, 2007, 12:46 PM   #77
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Ok, I think its time for me to chime in now.

Iím the new V.P. of the MTU Four Wheelers for 2007-2008. And I have a few things to add and ask.

First, boy scout is on CFA land. I believe its commercial forest association or something like that. The logging companies own it but in order to not pay taxes on the land they must keep it open to the public for any form of traffic. Either foot or motor. This only applies when it is not being logged, as soon as they start cutting in an area they can close it down. This is the case of boy scout. So my first question, as most of the land we wheel is CFA land does this no spin tires rule still apply?

Second, our club gets a lot of local complaints for things we have never done. Its just easier to target an organized club to pin shit on then blame the actual culprits. I will say, yes we have spun our tires on boy scout in the past wheelin it while it was open. But it was needed to traverse the trail and get through under your own power. As many of the other trails we run spinning the tires is needed to keep forward movement. So I guess according to this 2 wheel law or rule anything that you want to wheel must be able to be traveled by a 2 wheel drive? I know you could never have gotten a 2 wheel drive down boy scout, so we should have never been there? I was an open trail, run by many of both MTU students and locals. Also many of the other trails we run you could never make it down with a 2 wheel drive, so we cant be there either? If these areas can not be run then I donít see much wheelin here in the Keweenaw that can be done legally. We donít have scramble areas. If I pick trails to run that are accessible by a 2 wheel drive then we are not wheelin. As soon as you start spinning the tires, do you pull cable?

Im at a loss here. Seems this sport cant go on any longer in our area with all the shit that has been hitting the fan. This issue we are discussing as well as others in the Keweenaw.

I question for all reading this thread. Have you ever spun your tires on land that was not on an ORV park, or any of these areas in question besides water areas? I find it hard to believe no one has.

I thought the wheelin we did was legal, but apparently what I thought was wheelin is busting the rules. And real wheelin in MI is 2 wheelin. More info on this topic of CFA land and tires being spun would be great as I donít want to take the club places we should not be.
This thread is getting into the real heart of our issues in Michigan. I am sure there are tons of still pics and videos of folks getting their rigs muddy. Common sense would say that an old forest road that has been around for 40 years should be OK to drive down. Unfortunately, it flat out IS NOT LEGAL if you could not drive down it with Mom's grocery getter.

Period!

We have all (including me) tried to put a different spin on it, sugar coat it or whatever. But if you review the law (which kb8ymf linked above), it clearly says 2 things that pretty much sum it up.
1) it must be traversable by a conventional 2 wheel drive vehicle. The DNR interprets this as a showroom grocery getter.
2) You can not operate in an erosive manner. This is highly subject to interpretation by the local officer. If he thinks you are tearing it up, you get a ticket.

Asking about pulling cable: Nope, don't pull cable. Why? Because the showroom floor grocery getter doesn't come standard with a winch. If you have to winch, you don't belong there.

We consistently hear that the UP is treated different than the LP. Probably true but doesn't change the law.

Keep in mind that by the definition of the law, Uncle Harry driving his farm truck out to his favorite deer blind on state land it technically illegal. But up to this point, we haven't heard much about that happening. It is mostly the guys with lifted rigs, tires & such that catch the eye of the DNR.

Want to do a little research? Look into the impact that the new "forest certification" is doing.

Private timber land? Sure they have to keep it open. But I would believe that the roads there are still subject to state laws. Back to the grocery getter.

All of us would like to think that we can still drive the forest roads that require 4 wheel drive. I don't know how to get the attention of folks to realize that it is flat out gone! And with only 300 or so members of "the only group that represents full size users at the government level in Michigan", our numbers are just not strong enough to be heard.

And then everyone wants to know why we can't get anthing accomplished.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 01:40 PM   #78
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Okay, so basically there should be no logging in the upper penninsula, or anywhere in Michigan for that matter. Have you ever seen the ruts from a skidder? HOLY SHIT! How about the skidder they sunk in a swamp off of canal road in houghton, and then got a dozer stuck getting it out (can you say WETLANDS!!). Or the loggers who go down these roads and it is rough as shit, and they are spinning all day long (my buddy is a logger, you should hear some of the stories from him and his buddies).
As far as boyscout goes, there was a group of guys from our club that went to run boyscout when it appeared that it was going to be closed (not a club run). They came across a DNR officer and questioned him if they could go down there, and he had no problems with it what-so-ever. How about when you come to a trail with a bunch of rocks on it? A 2wd car can't make it down there, you are supposed to just turn around? There won't be any erosion taking place. I had one of the founding members of GLFWDA on one of our stocker runs, it was just like one of our usual wheeling runs, and he saw no problems with anything our club was doing. I'm not trying to defend illegal wheeling, but I'm just trying to get these laws in perspective how if the state is benefiting from the money coming in from logging they turn a blind eye, but after these loggers are done and it is already ripped up, they want to call us driving trhough there illegal. You are correct in the fact that the wheeling for us yoopers is completely different than for you trolls. There are plenty of laws out there that don't get enforced (ie, swearing in front of women and children). Thats a Michigan law, make sure you don't do it. Just like none of these laws which you have stated are enforced up here (except for the wetlands one, I watched some stock guy (not in our club) drive down into a swampy area and get stuck, then ticketed by the DNR. I'm not trying to justify breaking of the law, but I'm trying to put it in perspective of why people up here are ignorant (and I'm also venting a little bit). If this is the way its really gonna be I'm getting out of wheeling all together and starting on the monster truck I've been holding off on until after college.

Additions:
Cross streams only at designated fording points, or where the road crosses the stream.
Choose the appropriate winch for your vehicle size.

Both of these come from Tread Lightly's website. Should we be attacking tread lightly as well because they are telling people its okay to cross a stream. Why do we even need a winch if you should never be anywhere you need it? Again, I feel like I sound like I am being confrontational, but I'm just trying to put it in perspective and take a bigger look at the picture.

Last edited by MTUJeeper; May 4th, 2007 at 01:46 PM.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 02:08 PM   #79
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Next week both me and MTU Jeeper will be going down to Crystal Falls MI to the district 3 DNR office to talk to a few DNR officers to get strait forward answers to our questions regarding wheelin in the Keweenaw.

I really need to get this figured out to keep our club alive and wheelin legal.
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Old May 4th, 2007, 02:10 PM   #80
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Thank you to MTUJeeper, ckupq, chevytahoe564, and todd for coming on and admitting some responsibility for the video's or afilliation to the individuals shown in them.
I know you might not have liked what you heard about the state of four-wheeling in Michigan and where you can/can not go but I hope this will make you become more aware of the issues we face in Michigan.
For many years the users in the UP have thought they were immune to the 'long arm of the law', but times are a changing.
I hope you consider Trail_Fanatic's offer to join up and help us educate other users as well as the DNR in developing the needed recreation in this state.
(ADDED NOTE: Please report back on your meeting with them)
jim-kb8ymf
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