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Old February 27th, 2007, 08:29 AM   #41
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Onemanbanned, Did you ever think that it isn't that people don't want to talk about the issues with the DNR, its that they just don't want to talk about it with you?
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Old February 27th, 2007, 11:24 AM   #42
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Onemanbanned, Did you ever think that it isn't that people don't want to talk about the issues with the DNR, its that they just don't want to talk about it with you?
Uhhhh, aren't we talking about the simple discussions between "us" that should drive our united ideas forward as opposed to each and every single one of us "talking issues with the DNR???"

And if you're saying that "22,000" of us know today exactly how these tens of millions will be spent; where this massive trail mileage will be laid out/what it will consist of and how much we should increase our user fees in order to be viewed as responsible stewards of the environment.....hey, what's one more out here that's never heard a peep one from our anonymous so-called representative council regarding any of this?

"We just don't want to talk about it with you...."

Did we somehow just get transported back in time to the grade school 'playground' or something?

C'mon guys....grow up!

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Old February 27th, 2007, 11:42 AM   #43
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You still don't get it. People on this forum want to talk about the issues we face against the DNR....I just don't think they want to talk about it with you............do you understand that now? As in I don't think anyone here likes you as you come off as a dickhead.


We have issue about the DNR creating challenging trails for Jeeps/SUV/Pickup trucks. You seemed concerned about atv/quads/rhino type vehicles......wrong forum for that. If I'm getting that part wrong from your babblings then I'm sorry.
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Old February 27th, 2007, 12:43 PM   #44
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[QUOTE=Roadhouse;445531]"You still don't get it. People on this forum want to talk about the issues we face against the DNR...."
All of the issues I've raised to date take the adult approach of working 'with' as opposed to against the DNR on issues such as funding and just where this massive mileage should be laid own and in what form.
You may have that attitude and try every day to rally folks around your angry cause using it...yet I can guarantee you that not one member of our community striving to act 'professionally" in these pursuits....comes across in this manner for more reasons than you probably have the capacity to understand at this point in time.

"....As in I don't think anyone here likes you as you come off as a dickhead....."

I don't mind being called names...as much as I dislike being talked down to by the people who lead us for the fact that we call each other names in the first place.
When you look at who these guys have defending them day in and day out....it isn't hard to see why they unapoligetically 'dumb it down' for the rest of us in this community when the curtain is drawn back at these one-way "we do the talking" meetings every 3 months and elsewhere.

"....We have issue about the DNR creating challenging trails for Jeeps/SUV/Pickup trucks. You seemed concerned about atv/quads/rhino type vehicles......wrong forum for that..."

Which is why nothing has been or never will get done in a unified manner anywhere.
I'm starting to believe that the majority light 4-wheeled crowd is the only group with even half a chance to inject anything even approaching reasonable consensus into the debate on these issues.

As you witness above...the other two smaller minority groups on either side of them (single-trackers and full-sizers) seem to be so inexplainedly full of this sad extremism and outright hatred for the rest of us...that ever convincing these two groups of the value gained from working together or doing so in the creation of a multi-use trail system in general....seems quite a long-shot at best.

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Old February 27th, 2007, 04:08 PM   #45
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I have to say I agree with John on the fact the groups refuse to be amical enough to work together. there is no reason we can't have a 10,000 member club that supports all the groups. we have the numbers. just not the will.

As for discussing ATV issues here? its a major part of OUR sport and I would expect that of everyone here you see that. reguardless of width we are in this together.
so when everyone is done telling people to shove off, and puffing out our chests at each other we will still need a course of action to persue in order to get more trail or route.
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Old February 27th, 2007, 04:16 PM   #46
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I have to say I agree with John on the fact the groups refuse to be amical enough to work together. there is no reason we can't have a 10,000 member club that supports all the groups. we have the numbers. just not the will.

As for discussing ATV issues here? its a major part of OUR sport and I would expect that of everyone here you see that. reguardless of width we are in this together.
so when everyone is done telling people to shove off, and puffing out our chests at each other we will still need a course of action to persue in order to get more trail or route.
I'm didn't mean to say we don't care about other user groups...sorry for that. What I meant is they way he talks and what he is trying to say(still not sure) is falling on mostly deaf ears with full size users. Thats all.

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Old February 28th, 2007, 04:38 AM   #47
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[QUOTE=Yetti;445999]"...there is no reason we can't have a 10,000 member club that supports all the groups. we have the numbers. just not the will....."

Why this is not happening:

#1) We have one group brainwashing their young people into fighting for "me-only" trails as some kind of birthright that nobody else should selfishly desire.(which none of us do)...

#2) Any resources from a 'united' community would be sucked away to pursue land we could not access at any given time...

#3) The maintenance system would have to truly be opened up to private bid; which means opening up the system itself to 60" so that reasonably wide machinery could get down it to do so...

#4) The organization would have to be built on the premise that volunteerism isn't the end all; but a money-saving suppliment to strict "pay-to-play" ideals that will be a fact of life even before we are all dead and gone.

#5) A multi-use system across the board translates into simple shared power...and that aint happenin' if you have the arrogant "we are the anointed ones" attitude exhibited in reason #1 above.

And if the anonymous council in the title of this thread isn't talking about getting over every one of these obstacles for the betterment of this community and the land that we are responsible for....then I'm wondering how the first guy who ever stood up and even so much as suggested same... got treated.(I'm guessing that nobody has had the guts to do so on said council...but I could be wrong and apoligize beforehand if I am).

Dana is absolutely right in that an anonymous council forced to operate as such because of non-profit political limitations they shouldn't be blatantly skirting anyways...isn't the answer.
If we all can't operate out here in the light of day...then we sure as heck aren't going to attract the numbers of young people needed to possibly join the effort for the sake of their own legacy.(in other words....if you're "22,000 strong" and nobody knows a damn thing about you...you've created this farce strictly to legitimize the shepherding of these millions and this massive mileage....exactly where YOU want it to go....and obviously no one else).

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Old February 28th, 2007, 06:57 PM   #48
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[quote=OneManBanned;446981]
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#3) The maintenance system would have to truly be opened up to private bid; which means opening up the system itself to 60" so that reasonably wide machinery could get down it to do so...
well you know as well as I that the state only sees 3 sizes of trails. the problem is even if they said that we would open them uptommorow implementing anything takes years. so if I were you I would either buy a street legal machine or a 50" one. you maybe old and gray by the time you get the trails you want if ever. our only hope is still looking at the redesignation of forest roads to 72" routes. if they do that you would have your trails and then some.
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Old March 1st, 2007, 06:46 AM   #49
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[QUOTE=Yetti;448125]
"well you know as well as I that the state only sees 3 sizes of trails. the problem is even if they said that we would open them uptommorow implementing anything takes years...."


I suppose that my point involves not what 'the state' wants...but the historical significance of the fact that the Michigan orv community in '05 sided with them 100% to a man and without dissention on this groundbreaking proposal.....going so far as to define it as an 'environmental as well as safety-related concern'.(even throwing cost in there with absolutely no studies taken; only implied nonsense created by a "22,000 member representative council" who to this day won't even give their names or publicly held positions in regards to tens of millions, or potentially more, presently on the table).

Put it this way....even if we forced the state to properly appoint replacements for our expired term orv advisory board members (especially the chairman working on his 2nd year) or more importantly prodded them to reach out to the general public for apllicants eager to serve on this representative board as public servants....it may take years to get those people installed....as we witnessed with this last bunch inexplainedly delayed for that same period of time!

Do I need to go on?

"... so if I were you I would either buy a street legal machine or a 50" one. you maybe old and gray by the time you get the trails you want if ever....."

Again, it shouldn't be about the true multi-use system "I" desire; but pure common sense driven by the hard realities of creating an undivided community that should (IMO) cause folks to pause a second and think about it.
I don't see anybody on here disputing how our "you argue your trails/we'll argue ours" us-against-them political system has divided us....yet I see few willing to stand up here and talk very directly like a man (or woman) should on how we effectively not only change this for the better....but prevent same from ever happening again.

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Old March 1st, 2007, 07:31 AM   #50
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hey onemanbanned, I just looked through all of your posts on this site. I'm actually curious if you have a cucumber stuck in your ass, or you just hate life.

Please respond. Thanks.
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Old March 1st, 2007, 07:58 AM   #51
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hey onemanbanned, I just looked through all of your posts on this site. I'm actually curious if you have a cucumber stuck in your ass, or you just hate life.

Please respond. Thanks.
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Old March 1st, 2007, 08:26 AM   #52
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hey onemanbanned, I just looked through all of your posts on this site. I'm actually curious if **you have a cucumber stuck in your ass**, or you just hate life.

Please respond. Thanks.
My response:

Posted on February 5th, 2007 by
**mikesova05**
Location: Mt. Pleasant, MI
Posts: 1,057

"... i enjoy debate and i don't take it personally. I never call anyone names...."


Reply posted on February 5th, 2007 by
clarkstoncracker:

"...if you enjoy debate, then lets argue Bostrom's theory of simulated reality.

What are your opinions on it? I will argue the opposite of what you think...."


OMB:
'nuff said.....

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Old March 1st, 2007, 08:38 AM   #53
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My response:

Posted on February 5th, 2007 by
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Location: Mt. Pleasant, MI
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"... i enjoy debate and i don't take it personally. I never call anyone names...."


Reply posted on February 5th, 2007 by
clarkstoncracker:

"...if you enjoy debate, then lets argue Bostrom's theory of simulated reality.

What are your opinions on it? I will argue the opposite of what you think...."


'nuff said.....

That's why you sarcastically call Dick Rany "god"?
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Old March 6th, 2007, 10:18 PM   #54
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Thank you to those who supported me and also to you, OneManBanned.
I appreciate your kind words. I do my best to stay PC when I'm 'representing' our sport. Not always as easy as it should, but I try.

No, my feelings weren't hurt. I can take it.
I don't think you're talking about me personally when you speak of the MMRC. I've only been on-board for a year.

It really isn't anonymous, it's kept as small as possible so that business can be conducted more easily. There is no charter or by-laws. It's not an 'official' organization created by some obscure lobby, it's just a couple of representatives from the state level associations of the various forms of orv getting together to get on the same page and see how much we can agree on.

There isn't an RUV representative because we don't know of any state-wide organization representing them. I try to keep you guys in mind when I make comments, as does Dick (believe it or not). He has voiced concern over the lack of direction for your class of vehicle.

We understand that right now you're only legally allowed on ORV Routes like us 4x4s - without the benefit of the Forest and County Road systems to back it up. I understand that you don't care for it. I don't either.

That's why I continue to try to do what I can.

. . . and I have leaned through experience that people must present themselves as the type of individuals who the various decision makers want to work with if anything is going to get accomplished.

It's all about partnerships.

If we can't get along, we'll never be able to work together.
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Old March 7th, 2007, 07:22 AM   #55
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[QUOTE=Trail_Fanatic;456665]"..I don't think you're talking about me personally when you speak of the MMRC. I've only been on-board for a year..."

No, I wasn't...as you have at least kept your mind open and allowed the story to be told as to just what transpired before you got there. This has been the problem with others. They can't dispute the facts brought forward...so they attack anybody that was (unfortunately for them) there in person to witness how folks have been treated for decades now that dared to step forward.

"...It really isn't anonymous, it's kept as small as possible so that business can be conducted more easily...."

Respectfully, TF....we've already got 'the man' on record boasting of how he would "never reveal" who these guys were from the beginning...a quote I made part of my signature on this thread (from the atv connection forums http://forums.atvconnection.com/mess...word1=michigan) for quite some time when he would duck in and out of the discussion at his liesure.

I've asked questions for YEARS to even the DNR of these secretive individuals....who for a long time wouldn't even admit to knowing who they were...this council supposedly working "hand in hand" with the same people!

I don't know what they've told you about how these guys formed and what they promised all of us at that board meeting where they admonished us for not getting folks like the sledders involved in this type of council...but please don't tell me that the absence of these highly organized 'we have no secrets' snowmobilers now....is some kind of 'accident'. (one only has to compare the availiability of contact information for our group and theirs to get the whole story here...and it's been that way for years despite loud calls for 'stand up like a man' change).

"....There is no charter or by-laws. It's not an 'official' organization created by some obscure lobby, it's just a couple of representatives from the state level associations of the various forms of orv getting together to get on the same page and see how much we can agree on...."

C'mon, TF and respectfully again....there are certain rules that a non-profit must abide by when lobbying the state on these issues...and I don't have to go any further in explaining the bs methods of whitewashing this fact.

If you're proud of what you're doing; you invite and allow the public in to discuss these issues just as these people (from the Ohio Multi-Use Trails Association website: http://www.ohiotrails.org/ ) are doing not just a few miles south of us next month.
This type of 'act like a man' public meeting has never occured and never will in Michigan if this council continually shows up at advisory board meetings claiming 'this is the way it's going to be' with a nod at the board and no public back and forth discussion following...and that's a damn shame, IMO with all these millions on the line presently.

"...There isn't an RUV representative because we don't know of any state-wide organization representing them...."

Lack of representation for Ruvs is such a small part of the problem here that the issue doesn't even register when considering that the public has no way to determine how we will be represented when these multi-million dollar proposals are put forward.
They killed the 60" bill and were arrogant enough to not even explain themselves while quickly burying that groundbreaking legislation just as fast as they could.
We've asked those very questions right here...and you'll be chastised to no end if you ask them again of these people....which is why our atv representatives refused to do so and supported the bill 100% at that time.(nobody wants to buck anybody supporting the city slicker suburban riding area they want to put in at a huge cost to the rest of the 'hick' system in dire need of repair...and they never will).

"...I try to keep you guys in mind when I make comments, as does Dick (believe it or not). He has voiced concern over the lack of direction for your class of vehicle...."

C'mon, TF; his sidekick on the board has called for either regulating them (with absolutely no position put forth publicly)...OR (by gosh) BANNING THEM!

These guys are both representing us on expired terms, you know it, support it and won't say a word about it; just like everybody else on here and in the community.

With the sad part here being...that when we get somebody up there that we REALLY disagree with?...the precedent will have already been set and good darn luck getting rid of them.

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Old March 7th, 2007, 08:44 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneManBanned View Post
My response:

Posted on February 5th, 2007 by
**mikesova05**
Location: Mt. Pleasant, MI
Posts: 1,057

"... i enjoy debate and i don't take it personally. I never call anyone names...."


Reply posted on February 5th, 2007 by
clarkstoncracker:

"...if you enjoy debate, then lets argue Bostrom's theory of simulated reality.

What are your opinions on it? I will argue the opposite of what you think...."


OMB:
'nuff said.....

The quote that you used of mine was out of context. But back on topic, It always amazes me to see the different approachs people take in delivering their views to the masses. Now I am not asking you to acquiesce with the decisions of any 4x4 board, but it appears from the outside that you are putting 100% of your effort into giving the board a bad name instead of trying to change it.

The wording in your posts, and the negative nature doesn't fly with most. I am so turned off by your "presentation" that I view you as a charlatan.

If you can do me a favor, and others who read this, please make a list of the changes you would like to see, rather then direct attacks on members. Discussion and disagreements, or "competition" is good for every aspect of life, because it keeps people honest, but it appears you are someone who had a very bad experience with a person on the board and this is your way to get back at them.
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Old March 7th, 2007, 09:23 AM   #57
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"Respectfully, TF....we've already got 'the man' on record boasting of how he would "never reveal" who these guys were from the beginning...a quote I made part of my signature on this thread (from the atv connection forums http://forums.atvconnection.com/mess...word1=michigan) for quite some time when he would duck in and out of the discussion at his liesure.

I've asked questions for YEARS to even the DNR of these secretive individuals....who for a long time wouldn't even admit to knowing who they were...this council supposedly working "hand in hand" with the same people!

I don't know what they've told you about how these guys formed and what they promised all of us at that board meeting where they admonished us for not getting folks like the sledders involved in this type of council...but please don't tell me that the absence of these highly organized 'we have no secrets' snowmobilers now....is some kind of 'accident'. (one only has to compare the availiability of contact information for our group and theirs to get the whole story here...and it's been that way for years despite loud calls for 'stand up like a man' change)." qoute from onemandelusional

This cracks my ass up, I was one of the founding members of the MMRC super secret council and dont recall the meeting where were said we would forever be cloaked in darkness and work closely with the CIA and DNR operatives to never reveal our real identity to the general public. But I digress, excuse me while I go wash my cape and polish my dagger.
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Old March 7th, 2007, 06:02 PM   #58
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"I was one of the founding members of the MMRC super secret council and dont recall the meeting where were said we would forever be cloaked in darkness and work closely with the CIA and DNR operatives to never reveal our real identity to the general public..
From the atvconnection website http://forums.atvconnection.com/mess...TARTPAGE/7.cfm and "BusyRider":

"I certainly am not going to tip my hand in any plans of action by MMRC or any other group, or planning that is in process that I may know of...Let me assure anyone reading, everytime possible, any decisions that are major, WE make them together through MMRC. I will never reveal who all the allies are in MMRC...."

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Old March 7th, 2007, 06:02 PM   #59
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I dont recall the meeting where were said we would forever be cloaked in darkness and work closely with the CIA and DNR operatives to never reveal our real identity to the general public. But I digress, excuse me while I go wash my cape and polish my dagger.

Dude you have to stop, I have tears rolling down my face I'm laughing so hard.
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Old March 7th, 2007, 06:11 PM   #60
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Apparently, somebody has a short memory when it comes to these guys bragging in regards to making decisions for the rest of us....while bragging even harder about how they would never reveal indeed who they even were.

Goodbye.
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