6 Reasons why God May Exist - Page 2 - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

Politics, Government, or Religion Chat Bring your flamesuit!

greatlakes4x4.com is the premier Great Lakes 4x4 Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 28th, 2007, 08:57 PM   #21
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,509
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitardrumr View Post
Purely as counterpoint for the article (which seems to be based upon creationism, though I could be mistaken), I'll post this, which was orginally posted in a forum I forgot the name of a long time ago.





Now, that stated...I can't say I believe in God, but I don't think I can say I'm certain that He doesn't exist. My way of thinking tends towards the likelihood of more than one God, but I can't really define it any better than that. I just don't see how one being, no matter how powerful, intelligent, benevolent, or forgiving, being able to watch over things as much as the original article seems to state.


...Please don't flame me...
I've read that before, and have had discusions like that before. Heres how the typical discusion goes... in condensed form:

EVOLUTIONIST:Evolution is fact, it explains all living things.
CREATIONIST:Where did living thing come from.
EVOLUTIONIST:From other living things.
CREATIONIST:Where did the first living thing come from?
EVOLUTIONIST:who cares, thats not part of the theory of evolution
CREATIONIST:But you have to have a starting point?
EVOLUTIONIST:Maybe the big bang, but thats not part of the theory of evolution
CREATIONIST:But how did the world go from having no living things to having living things?
EVOLUTIONIST:Dunno. But evolution just concerns itself with living things, not where they came from.
CREATIONIST: So it doesn't bother you that we have no idea how the world got to the starting point of your theory?
EVOLUTIONIST:nope. but everything since then is a fact.

I've yet to see any firm theory for how the world got from no living things to living things.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old February 28th, 2007, 09:19 PM   #22
artistic_gore
I own @ halo
 
artistic_gore's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-05-06
Location: Granite Falls, WA
Posts: 1,128
iTrader: (2)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to artistic_gore
Default

Where did god come from, I have yet to see any firm theory for how we got god in the first place. Kind of sounds like the same argument to me.
artistic_gore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28th, 2007, 09:35 PM   #23
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,509
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by artistic_gore View Post
Where did god come from, I have yet to see any firm theory for how we got god in the first place. Kind of sounds like the same argument to me.
According to the Bible he was always here and always will be. Believing in god doesn't not require the acceptance of a transition from no-god to god.

But to believe that live evolved naturally without a higher power involved requires that acceptance of a natural transition from no-life to life.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28th, 2007, 09:44 PM   #24
ddeadserious
Senior Member
 
ddeadserious's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-20-06
Location: Plymouth, MI
Posts: 5,078
iTrader: (44)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to ddeadserious
Default

:dunie:
ddeadserious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 1st, 2007, 12:29 AM   #25
SkyyPunk
Lego Dude
 
SkyyPunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-10-06
Location: Belleville, MI
Posts: 1,655
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
According to the Bible he was always here and always will be. Believing in god doesn't not require the acceptance of a transition from no-god to god.

But to believe that live evolved naturally without a higher power involved requires that acceptance of a natural transition from no-life to life.
You, sir, caused me to scratch my head on this one
SkyyPunk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 1st, 2007, 07:30 AM   #26
Guitardrumr
Senior Member
 
Guitardrumr's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-17-05
Location: Romulus, MI
Posts: 1,815
iTrader: (2)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to Guitardrumr
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
I've read that before, and have had discusions like that before. Heres how the typical discusion goes... in condensed form:

EVOLUTIONIST:Evolution is fact, it explains all living things.
CREATIONIST:Where did living thing come from.
EVOLUTIONIST:From other living things.
CREATIONIST:Where did the first living thing come from?
EVOLUTIONIST:who cares, thats not part of the theory of evolution
CREATIONIST:But you have to have a starting point?
EVOLUTIONIST:Maybe the big bang, but thats not part of the theory of evolution
CREATIONIST:But how did the world go from having no living things to having living things?
EVOLUTIONIST:Dunno. But evolution just concerns itself with living things, not where they came from.
CREATIONIST: So it doesn't bother you that we have no idea how the world got to the starting point of your theory?
EVOLUTIONIST:nope. but everything since then is a fact.

I've yet to see any firm theory for how the world got from no living things to living things.
Belief in the theory of evolution does not necessarily require disbelief in God. Who's to say that God didn't breathe life onto the planet, creating the first single celled organisms? This is usually where I lose most people...as I said before, I don't know if I truly believe in a one true God, but I can't say that I don't believe in some form of higher power. What I tend to have a problem with, is the whole "God created us as perfect beings" theory that Creationists want taught in school as FACT. This is not fact, we have proof of human evolution. True, we don't have the whole chain, but there is enough there to know that we haven't existed in one, perfect form, for thousands of years. We got here through evolutionary trial and error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
According to the Bible he was always here and always will be. Believing in god doesn't not require the acceptance of a transition from no-god to god.

But to believe that live evolved naturally without a higher power involved requires that acceptance of a natural transition from no-life to life.
As I said above, believing in evolution does not necessarily dictate a disbelief in a higher power. Merely a disbelief in the "Perfect being" theory.

Last edited by Guitardrumr; March 1st, 2007 at 07:37 AM.
Guitardrumr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 1st, 2007, 09:01 AM   #27
The Nuge
Season's Here
 
The Nuge's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12-18-05
Location: Grand Haven/Mt. Pleasant
Posts: 1,068
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to The Nuge
Default

he exists, i already knew this
The Nuge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 1st, 2007, 10:46 AM   #28
3-foot
Senior Member
 
3-foot's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-21-06
Location: Springfield Township, Mi
Posts: 1,121
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

It isn't possible for the human to really comprehend infinity.

However, If you argue that God has always existed then you can also argue that life has always existed for the same reason.
3-foot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 1st, 2007, 08:48 PM   #29
shmler
Senior Member
 
shmler's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-08-06
Location: Statesville NC
Posts: 113
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to shmler
Default

Pretty interesting reading here. I am not one to argue someones believes as I feel everyone is intitled to what they feel strongly about. I have heard most of these arguments in classes here at school. (a small Free Methodists based university)

I think Leanz pointed out the main idea and that is it got her to think. Having something like that raise questions in you is a good thing. That being said I myself am also trying to sort out where I stand on issues such as these... you are not the only one asking questions...

Michael
shmler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 1st, 2007, 10:04 PM   #30
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,509
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3-foot View Post
It isn't possible for the human to really comprehend infinity.

However, If you argue that God has always existed then you can also argue that life has always existed for the same reason.
True. But if you take the most widely accepted theories, string them together into one big scientific "theory of the evolution of life, the universe, and everything" and ran it back to the begining I'm pretty sure you would get to a point where conditions would be such that life, at least as we know it here on earth, couldn't exist.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 1st, 2007, 11:24 PM   #31
Motor Slut
I put the Ick in Dick.
 
Motor Slut's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-10-05
Location: 49963
Posts: 2,411
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Why can't GOD be the one controlling evolution?

Why is it always one way or the other?
Motor Slut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 1st, 2007, 11:42 PM   #32
98HighRider
One taco short of a combo
 
98HighRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-10-06
Location: Camp Bastion, Helmand Province, Afghanistan
Posts: 656
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motor Slut View Post
Why can't GOD be the one controlling evolution?

Why is it always one way or the other?
There ya go. God created life, life evolved into what it is today. never knew it was so simple
98HighRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2nd, 2007, 12:21 AM   #33
85 B-Duce
Member
 
85 B-Duce's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-06
Location: Livonia, Mi
Posts: 31
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

I'll tell you guys what. Even though I don't go to church any more or verry rarely, I would much rather belive in some thing and find out that it doesn't exist; rather than not believe in god or christ and find out the hard way that he or the supreme being does exist and get the shit end of the stick, if you know what I mean. "There is more than one path to the top of the mountain" Heed what I am saying. When I get the feeling that I need to go to church (where I get the notion to go god only knows) I go. If you actually sit there and listen what the priest has to say after that hour mass is finished I feel a great sense on enlightenment, now what can be bad about that.
85 B-Duce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2nd, 2007, 12:30 AM   #34
TJrockdogg
Living on the Edge
 
TJrockdogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-10-06
Location: Chesterfield,MI
Posts: 2,076
iTrader: (7)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

good original post Leanz, I have been brought up to believe God exists and I do believe. I can't call this proof, but can share with everyone and you decide.

many of you have heard about my motorcycle accident, over a year ago. not going to go into great detail.

I was in a turn, the bike started shaking out of control, went off the road, ended up sliding sideways into a tree, hit my head on the tree knocking me unconscious, spent a week in a coma, 3 weeks in the hospital, 3 weeks in re-hab learning to use my brain again, 13 1/2 months with no income.

I believe God helped me and my family get through this traumatic ordeal, along with alot of friends. I've spent alot of time researching the accident, found out that one week before my accident, exact same location, motorcycle accident, same tree, but the person died at the location.

Last edited by TJrockdogg; March 2nd, 2007 at 12:41 AM.
TJrockdogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2nd, 2007, 12:41 AM   #35
merr6267
More boost than yours:)
 
merr6267's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-13-06
Location: Allendale, MI
Posts: 1,250
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motor Slut View Post
Why can't GOD be the one controlling evolution?

Why is it always one way or the other?

That's what I've been thinking for a long time. I mean, it said that Adam was created from the dust of the Earth . . . hmm, maybe that creation happened to take millions of years. I know it says days, but how do we know the time frame that was told to these ancient people?

The Bible was written by mortals, based on stories from other mortals. It's thousands of years old. Manuscripts were lost all the time, only to be unearthed hundreds of years later in some tomb. There are so many stories that go untold, likely because there was a missing manuscript when whatever king or whoever had the scribes re wite it all into one book . . . anyway, what I'm getting at it the way the stories are told.

Think about the way you were taught any subject in 3rd grade. It was much more straight forward back then wasn't it? Well, maybe the origin of humanity had to be taught to normal citizens like we were taught in elementary school. Most people 10000-1000 years ago were pretty uneducated afterall. Most people would have scoffed at the idea of evolution. Most things had to be cut-and-dried absolute.
It's easier to make everyone believe with a story that is absolute and the end-all-be-all.

Now, if the beginning really was a "big bang", why isn't that much like "Let there be light?"

Then there was the earth, a few million years later . . . I mean it says each step happened in a day, but who defined days at that point, and what person thousands of years ago could understand the number one million, let alone billions. (try to explain huge numbers to a small child)

So, seven days was told to simplify things, and even to lay some understanding to it all.

If you think about biblical stories and a lot of the 'science' much of it seems to fall together into sync.

How about with illness . . . for years people have been saying that "God healed my baby" etc. Well, now we have technology and understanding of the chemical reactions that took place to make the healing happen. But what if the reactions and all were simply the how, and not the why? I mean, maybe God is doing all of this, but there has to be a mechanism doesn't there?

Think about building your Jeep etc. You can't just say "Let there be a Jeep"
You have to turn the nuts and bolts and weld the steel etc. Well, where did the steel come from for all that? Think about evolution like that. There was a mechanism or method to put it all together and make it all work.

Think about all of the controls and variables in a modern car, pretty mind boggling eh? Well they were all sorted out over time by smart minds. All put together over time.

Who's to say that God didn't do a little of that over time to make the right Adam? Figure out exactly which compunds and reactions etc made the right cell wall to grow a plant, etc.

Maybe evolution is just the method God used to create life as we know it . . . much like evolution is the method the auto industry has used to create cars as we know them.

I don't know, I'm just typing this as I think of it. Maybe I'll write a draft someday.

I do know that the faith of Jesus dying on the cross is all that matters in the large scheme of Christianity though, and I've heard a lot of testimonies about that as well.

Maybe I make no sense, but whatev.

Take care,
Phill
merr6267 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2nd, 2007, 03:33 AM   #36
Guitardrumr
Senior Member
 
Guitardrumr's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-17-05
Location: Romulus, MI
Posts: 1,815
iTrader: (2)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to Guitardrumr
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by merr6267 View Post
That's what I've been thinking for a long time. I mean, it said that Adam was created from the dust of the Earth . . . hmm, maybe that creation happened to take millions of years. I know it says days, but how do we know the time frame that was told to these ancient people?

The Bible was written by mortals, based on stories from other mortals. It's thousands of years old. Manuscripts were lost all the time, only to be unearthed hundreds of years later in some tomb. There are so many stories that go untold, likely because there was a missing manuscript when whatever king or whoever had the scribes re wite it all into one book . . . anyway, what I'm getting at it the way the stories are told.

Think about the way you were taught any subject in 3rd grade. It was much more straight forward back then wasn't it? Well, maybe the origin of humanity had to be taught to normal citizens like we were taught in elementary school. Most people 10000-1000 years ago were pretty uneducated afterall. Most people would have scoffed at the idea of evolution. Most things had to be cut-and-dried absolute.
It's easier to make everyone believe with a story that is absolute and the end-all-be-all.

Now, if the beginning really was a "big bang", why isn't that much like "Let there be light?"

Then there was the earth, a few million years later . . . I mean it says each step happened in a day, but who defined days at that point, and what person thousands of years ago could understand the number one million, let alone billions. (try to explain huge numbers to a small child)

So, seven days was told to simplify things, and even to lay some understanding to it all.

If you think about biblical stories and a lot of the 'science' much of it seems to fall together into sync.

How about with illness . . . for years people have been saying that "God healed my baby" etc. Well, now we have technology and understanding of the chemical reactions that took place to make the healing happen. But what if the reactions and all were simply the how, and not the why? I mean, maybe God is doing all of this, but there has to be a mechanism doesn't there?

Think about building your Jeep etc. You can't just say "Let there be a Jeep"
You have to turn the nuts and bolts and weld the steel etc. Well, where did the steel come from for all that? Think about evolution like that. There was a mechanism or method to put it all together and make it all work.

Think about all of the controls and variables in a modern car, pretty mind boggling eh? Well they were all sorted out over time by smart minds. All put together over time.

Who's to say that God didn't do a little of that over time to make the right Adam? Figure out exactly which compunds and reactions etc made the right cell wall to grow a plant, etc.

Maybe evolution is just the method God used to create life as we know it . . . much like evolution is the method the auto industry has used to create cars as we know them.

I don't know, I'm just typing this as I think of it. Maybe I'll write a draft someday.

I do know that the faith of Jesus dying on the cross is all that matters in the large scheme of Christianity though, and I've heard a lot of testimonies about that as well.

Maybe I make no sense, but whatev.

Take care,
Phill
Thats a much more in depth explanation of what I meant when I said that a belief in Evolution does not necessarily dictate a disbelief on God, or vice versa. Well put
Guitardrumr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 2nd, 2007, 04:20 PM   #37
mikesova
My 4x4 is a Subaru.
 
mikesova's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Gladwin, MI
Posts: 7,809
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to mikesova
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 85 B-Duce View Post
I'll tell you guys what. Even though I don't go to church any more or verry rarely, I would much rather belive in some thing and find out that it doesn't exist; rather than not believe in god or christ and find out the hard way that he or the supreme being does exist and get the shit end of the stick, if you know what I mean. "There is more than one path to the top of the mountain" Heed what I am saying. When I get the feeling that I need to go to church (where I get the notion to go god only knows) I go. If you actually sit there and listen what the priest has to say after that hour mass is finished I feel a great sense on enlightenment, now what can be bad about that.
now is that true belief then, or is it, "i'm gonna try to save my ass just in case it is real" belief, because when you compare the two, the latter doesn't seem very genuine.
mikesova is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:57 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Page generated in 0.44801 seconds with 72 queries