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Old February 15th, 2007, 08:57 AM   #1
OneManBanned
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Default Our super-secret and anonymous representative council

I copied this from my original post in a thread that got off-topic; so that Trail Fanatic didn't take that fact and use same as an excuse from answering thee very pointed and legitimate questions concerning our sport below.

Here is the exchange that has yet to receive a reply:

Originally posted by
Trail_Fanatic:

"Therf's nothing super-secret about the MMRC.
I serve on it as a representative of the over 50" ORV class.

Sir (John, is it?),

The world is run by those who show up.
If you don't like the way it's being run, maybe it's time you showed up?
Heaven knows we could use the help.
Complaining doesn't constitute helping, either.
Think long enough to come up with at LEAST one possible solution to each of your problems.
Maybe one will be "THE" one which finally works.

One of the 'rules' (suggestions) of activism I picked up along the way (and like VERY much):

If you don't have a solution to offer,
You don't have a problem to bring up."


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Originally posted by OneManBanned):

Ahhhh!
Our very first publicly announced council member! (after how many years of silence on every single orv issue brought forward over that very long period of time?).

Are you here to make a statement as to who else serves on this council representing orvs in the state of Michigan and what their collective views are....or have you come across the moat to take a potshot; heave up the drawbridge and return defiantly to the collective fortress?

A couple questions if you don't mind.
I am a long time Rhino owner who certainly had trouble joining the "over 50 inch" folks that at least "I" talked to when my rig first hit the market.
Question #1...wasn't it you and your council who literally bragged about killing the 60" widening bill (House Bill 5343) in less than 26 hours???....):

And if you are indeed Mr. "over 50 inch".....who do I talk to PUBLICLY on this council about the new Polaris RZR and how this innovative manufacturer has literally shoved this groundbreaking machine right on up your collective rear ends after your 'representative council' immediately jumped all over this environmentally sound widening bill brought forward through Representative Hildenbrand and others without public or even orv community commentary?
(from atvconnection.com):http://www.atvconnection.com/Feature...Ranger-RZR.cfm

And as a follow-up....Did you support the notion that widening these trails to 60 inches was indeed 'cost prohibitive'....while at the same time ram-rodding even more mileage through this council and later our legislature? (we show up at our advisory board meeting only to be told that our trails are in disgusting disrepair and should indeed be closed down for 'study'...yet the next thing you know....Polaris is getting their teeth kicked out over establishing the correct width needed to actually MAINTAIN these trails correctly with decent equipment! (while yet even more trails are ADDED with absolutely no public discussion whatsoever as to the actually funding of ANY of this new mileage).

And excuse me, if indeed "there (is) nothing 'super-secret' about the MMRC...."
....then how in the heck did 'ol "blackballed" below (myself) get both his name and signature?
(from atvconnection.com)http://forums.atvconnection.com/mess...did/473974.cfm

"...Sir (John, is it?),

The world is run by those who show up.
If you don't like the way it's being run, maybe it's time you showed up?..."


(lol)
How many MORE times would you like me to "show up"...and how do my appearances "showing up" compare with 99% of the folks out there who have never made a trip to Lansing or maybe never even hosted youth training sessions out of their own damn pockets?
How would you like "showing up" after driving all the way to Lansing....and then be rudely shouted down; lied to and gaveled out the door before your alloted time to publicly speak was over with?

"Show up"....why don't YOU show up when it comes time to answer the tough questions that I've brought forward on this board to date...instead of taking the simpleton 'attack' route like every other arrogant and anonymous member of the council that you sit on with a bag over your head?

"...Heaven knows we could use the help..."

What help????

'Help' in bashing every orv user out there who comes up with a legitimate question directed towards representative 'leaders' that they can't even contact without spending several years attempting to determine who they even ARE or what they are in effect telling others as to what 'we' want?

Where in the heck were you when I needed "help" in getting the damn orv advisory board to meet as scheduled right smack dab in the middle of the single most important period in Michigan's orv history?
How about 'help' in forcing the DNR to publish the damn meeting minutes a full 8 weeks after that?
Or was "Mr. over 50 inch" so far 'in the know' during this critical time period....that us mere peons out here with no bag to put over our head ....weren't really a 'concern' in regards to even the most basic of tenants involving procedural protocol and our right to be heard as citizens of this state??

"...Complaining doesn't constitute helping, either...."

You know something, Trail Fanatic...I'll complain any time I DAMN WELL LIKE when it comes to you and your MMRC 'buddies' supposedly representing me for all these years without so much as even a meeting minutes published and literally tens of millions now on the line affecting MY resource.
How such a flat out arrogant attitude such as yours can be so wide-spread in this community is certainly beyond me; yet your failure to tackle even ONE of the tough questions raised since I've had the pleasure of joining this forum; tells me that 'silence' is about all we're going to indeed receive from 'leaders' such as yourself while these millions do indeed get spent .

"...Think long enough to come up with at LEAST one possible solution to each of your problems.
Maybe one will be "THE" one which finally works...."


Here you are avoiding every damn question about the problems themselves.....effectively BLOCKING every single discussion designed to dig away at the root of our problems while offering solutions at the same time...and all you've got for a 'comeback' is that each one of these is MY problem not 'worthy' of your input!

I mean, really TF....doesn't the above statement almost DEFINE the arrogance I've been describing here in almost graphic detail???
Can you possibly GET any more look-down-your-nose than that...or are you simply 'warming up'?

"....One of the 'rules' (suggestions) of activism I picked up along the way (and like VERY much):

If you don't have a solution to offer,
You don't have a problem to bring up...."


Which is the biggest bunch of fluff politico spin ever thought up and one that has been used by rank amateur politicians for years.

99.9% of the folks bringing any issue before ANYBODY damn well possess a solution in mind and aren't a bit 'afraid' to tell you about it....IF GIVEN THE CHANCE TO DO SO.

What usually gets in the way of these good folks ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHING THIS; is, again, 'spin meisters' like yourself continually attempting to divert any and all attention away from the subject at hand.
Want an example?
How about all the very simple and direct questions asked previously (there must be 'fifty' good ones by now)....with nothing but a claim by you that absolutely no solutions can be found in either the questions themselves or god forbid the massive amount of text put forth to date indeed explaining how we need to fix what is broken.

If you want to act like the rest of these guys and re-direct everything thrown at you with well worn out politico 'sayings'...have at it.

Yet I believe there are a few on this board who understand the facts brought forward to date here whether I get kicked off of this forum before explaining them further or not.

I don't like talking to long-respected members of these forums like this, believe me....vet this crap has gone on for far to long and it must stop before our kids lose any further interest in getting involved in these issues.
If these young people have to work even half as hard as I have had to in wading through the cast of condescending characters standing in their way on these issues...who in the heck here believes that they will ever pick up even one of them and run with it???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by:

OneManBanned

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic
"Therf's nothing super-secret about the MMRC.
...."


Then 'Google' these anonymous bastards operating as our supposed voice for YEARS now and pay special attention to the heading "Concerns of trail riders delay changes in ORV rules...".

Now tell me something Mr. "over 50 inch"....what in the heck machine do these goofs want 'banned' if they are not indeed regulated in WHAT manner?

And are you in possesssion of some kind of holier-than-thou 'proclamation' from these arrogant arses regarding the further use of my machine or god forbid the Polaris RZR that we here in the overall orv community are presently unaware of?

What's next?

You and your anonymous buddies working hard into the night on seeking to 'ban' this grounbreaking machine from the 50" trails also?

Seems to me that as our side-byu-side 'representative'....you SURELY should have all manner of commentary regarding this new product that Polaris finally and thankfully shoved right back up your rear ends when you slammed the door in both their and OUR faces here in Michigan.(sorry, but in the less than 26 hours it took to kill this thing...NOT A 'PEON' MEMBER OF THIS ORV COMMUNITY EITHER KNEW ABOUT THIS BILL OR RECEIVED EVEN A FAIR OPPORTUNITY TO SO MUCH AS COMMENT ON SAME....AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW IT).

So now that you've Googled this 100% out-in-the-open represenative council that you're "Mr. over 50 inch" on.....how many and what references do you find explaining exactly what they or you believe in (beyond feel good politico speak) and more importantly...can you ascertain just HOW they are representing us with all these 10's of millions of dollars now on the line?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by OneManBanned:

Adding to the comment above regarding our community representative's suggestion to ban these 'new' machines (not motorcycles obviously) or definitely by gosh further regulate their use....is there somebody on your super-secret council addressing Mr. Moll's pressing issue here (page 4) immediately before the last orv advisory board meeting adjourned? http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dn...s_179305_7.pdf

Is it your job Mr "over 50 inch" to contact both the NOHVCC and the CPSC (and I'd like to know who in the heck suggested that course of action to brush this inexplainable outburst quickly under the rug ) regarding Mr. Moll's insistence that something by gosh be done about this???

...and Michigan orv enthusiasts have allowed this guy's term to expire in December without so much as a 'peep' from ANYBODY in the orv community......for exactly what reason?

Yeah, we need one of the few true orv representives we have on that board writing letters to Polaris, Yamaha and the all the other manufacturers out there as to how they should damn well build their products.

And you guys expect that we should all just 'leave it up to you' and certainly quit asking these pesky questions as to just who represents us or what they have to say in meetings with others even more important to this sport?

Last edited by OneManBanned; February 15th, 2007 at 10:23 AM.
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Old February 15th, 2007, 10:38 AM   #2
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Quick question:

If the DNR controls our ability to contact our own representatives on 'our' orv advisory board instead of simply posting this info on the web as our snowmobile leaders have never had a problem with....why do you think that both they AND these anonymous council members believe it is "OK" to introduce the MMRC to everybody in the advisory board meeting minutes..... yet not reveal their names and simple contact info in that official and publicy viewed document?

There's just so much crap going on here (should we get into the guy who served 3 years representing orv clubs....yet was never elected himself?)...that the citizens of this state shouldn't be asked to go through anybody to get this information....period. (and it's damn sad that folks have been looking the other way on this for all these years while allowing a lot of good folk to be scared away in the process).
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Old February 15th, 2007, 04:51 PM   #3
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Well i don,t see what is hard about this http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...3974--,00.html other than using a phone book to look them up.

Last edited by signman; February 15th, 2007 at 04:53 PM. Reason: wrong link
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Old February 15th, 2007, 09:32 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by signman View Post
Well i don,t see what is hard about this http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...3974--,00.html other than using a phone book to look them up.
You want us to use a phone book; the DNR wants us to contact them (first)...while the sledders simply step up like men do without having to ignore requests for literally years to do so.http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...1116--,00.html (please compare this list containing term lengths spelled out and contact information given with your sarcastic demand that we all get out the phonebooks and somehow determine when the average 'peon' can once again apply for representative orv positions).

Tell me there, signman....what do you have to say about the orv advisory board term lengths (complete with start and finish dates) that were formerly published for all to see until the chair blew right through (now) two expiration dates....making those very simple flow charts an outright embarrasment for those charged with keeping the representative board protocol at the very least legitimate for the sake of future applicants?

Cat now got your tongue as it obviously has Trail Fanatic with his 'one post and out' proclamation?....I thought so.

I love how you guys come on in here and obviously take what must be your best shot....yet slink right back into your holes when the sad facts of this sordid mess are thrown right down at your feet.

Last edited by OneManBanned; February 15th, 2007 at 09:46 PM.
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Old February 15th, 2007, 09:53 PM   #5
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I don't suppose you applied for your stint as a ORV rep?

I would hate to see you miss your chance to replace Glen or Dick as their terms expire. who knows you might even get more then 3 minutes to speak at the meetings.
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Old February 15th, 2007, 10:22 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yetti View Post
I don't suppose you applied for your stint as a ORV rep?

I would hate to see you miss your chance to replace Glen or Dick as their terms expire. who knows you might even get more then 3 minutes to speak at the meetings
.
When did the application process begin?

Wasn't this needed search for new opinions supposed to start at least 6 months before "God's" first term expired over a year ago? (or possibly more given the disgustingly poor record of actually installing these applicants that nobody but seemingly myself has ever complained about?).

What many (and I don't count you in here, Yetti) don't understand, is the following;

When you allow the state to so cavalierly trash these appointments (let alone allow them to structure this board differently from the sledder board in the first place) you set a precedent that will indeed bite you (us) right in the arse someday when somebody worse than "God" (help us) is installed perpetually and their multiple expired term is covered up and manipulated in the same manner as we've unbelievably witnessed to date.

Today, we're saddled with a guy up there insisting that the manufacturers by gosh build their machines to whatever standard he dreams up at the moment with the guy beside hiom insisting that the NOHVCC or the CPSC damn well look into it....yet what in the heck pray tell are the "what iffers" of tomorrow capable of...and especially when they're hand-picked by the damn DNR!

Do you want to find out what 'precedence' morphs into on down the line in these governmental relations....when we already have 'leaders' standing up and spewing this kind of garbage without so much as a 'peep' from anyone?

I think our kids deserve better and it's a shame that nobody has the guts to say so regarding even the simplest of these procedural matters.
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Old February 15th, 2007, 10:35 PM   #7
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HOLY WHAA!
It's going to take me a bit to get through all that!
But I'll try . . .
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Old February 16th, 2007, 12:12 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneManBanned View Post

Ahhhh!
Our very first publicly announced council member! (after how many years of silence on every single orv issue brought forward over that very long period of time?).
How many years of silence? None. I've always been vocal. If I have an answer to a question that no one else has poted yet, I post it. I've been attending various meetings, learning the ropes, and trying to get up to speed for just over a year now. Not an esy task, but I'm making progress.

Are you here to make a statement as to who else serves on this council representing orvs in the state of Michigan and what their collective views are....or have you come across the moat to take a potshot; heave up the drawbridge and return defiantly to the collective fortress?
I was just making a statement -- I go to the meetings. The 'council' Is made of representaticves from the organized off road groups - cycle, atv, and jeep/truck. When I say I represent the over 50" crowd, it's by default. I'm there as a representative of GLFWDA. I don't know of any Michigan organization representing the RUV class of over 50" ORVs. If there is, PLEASE let me know. I'd be interested in getting them onboard.

Please, I don't 'heave up' things. I'm more than willing to try to address your questions and concerns as best I can, but it would be a lot easier if you'd post them without the name calling. You've never even met me. I happen to be a pretty nice guy who really does want to make a difference. Just bear in mind that I've only been at it for a year.

A couple questions if you don't mind.
I am a long time Rhino owner who certainly had trouble joining the "over 50 inch" folks that at least "I" talked to when my rig first hit the market.
Question #1...wasn't it you and your council who literally bragged about killing the 60" widening bill (House Bill 5343) in less than 26 hours???....):

And if you are indeed Mr. "over 50 inch".....who do I talk to PUBLICLY on this council about the new Polaris RZR and how this innovative manufacturer has literally shoved this groundbreaking machine right on up your collective rear ends after your 'representative council' immediately jumped all over this environmentally sound widening bill brought forward through Representative Hildenbrand and others without public or even orv community commentary?
(from atvconnection.com):http://www.atvconnection.com/Feature...Ranger-RZR.cfm

Link didn't work for me. ???
I get this:
Error Occurred While Processing Request File not found: /Feature..Ranger-RZR.cfm

Resources:
  • Enable Robust Exception Information to provide greater detail about the source of errors. In the Administrator, click Debugging & Logging > Debugging Settings, and select the Robust Exception Information option.
  • Check the ColdFusion documentation to verify that you are using the correct syntax.
  • Search the Knowledge Base to find a solution to your problem.
Browser Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; InfoPath.1)Remote Address 68.188.142.117Referrer Date/Time 15-Feb-07 10:24 PM


And as a follow-up....Did you support the notion that widening these trails to 60 inches was indeed 'cost prohibitive'....while at the same time ram-rodding even more mileage through this council and later our legislature? (we show up at our advisory board meeting only to be told that our trails are in disgusting disrepair and should indeed be closed down for 'study'...yet the next thing you know....Polaris is getting their teeth kicked out over establishing the correct width needed to actually MAINTAIN these trails correctly with decent equipment! (while yet even more trails are ADDED with absolutely no public discussion whatsoever as to the actually funding of ANY of this new mileage).

Like I stated abovcve, I'v only been involved for a year now, but I can at least give you my perspective. Keep in mind this is the first I've heard of this and truely wish the link was good.

My perspective:

I believe you had trouble joining an RUV group when you bought your first machine. I don't know of one either. There are enough of them sold to warrant the creation of one.

I wasn't involved yet and don't know if they bragged or not, but . . .
The State system is already set up for 50" and 72" trails and routes. I can understand that the DNR and/or the MMRC of that time period would find the creation of a 60" system, or the widening of the 50" trails to 60", would be cost prohibitive when 72" routes are already provided. It's only 6" more on each side.

No mileage was brought about by the MMRC, we're just trying to find the best way to utilize what the legislature was kind enough to grant us.

I'd like more info on the Polaris issue you brought up . . .if you can do it calmly, please.

And excuse me, if indeed "there (is) nothing 'super-secret' about the MMRC...."
....then how in the heck did 'ol "blackballed" below (myself) get both his name and signature?
(from atvconnection.com)http://forums.atvconnection.com/mess...did/473974.cfm

I'm not sure what you're what you're trying to say there?
Here's what I get when I click the link:
Error Occurred While Processing Request File not found: /mess..did/473974.cfm

Please try the following:
  • Enable Robust Exception Information to provide greater detail about the source of errors. In the Administrator, click Debugging & Logging > Debugging Settings, and select the Robust Exception Information option.
  • Check the ColdFusion documentation to verify that you are using the correct syntax.
  • Search the Knowledge Base to find a solution to your problem.
Browser Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; Media Center PC 4.0; InfoPath.1)Remote Address 68.188.142.117Referrer Date/Time 15-Feb-07 10:24 PM


"...Sir (John, is it?),

The world is run by those who show up.
If you don't like the way it's being run, maybe it's time you showed up?..."

(lol)
How many MORE times would you like me to "show up" ALL THE TIME - IF you can BE NICE, never if you can't be constructive...and how do my appearances "showing up" compare with 99% of the folks out there who have never made a trip to Lansing or maybe never even hosted youth training sessions out of their own damn pockets? Huh? I don't understand your comparison, please clarify.
How would you like "showing up" after driving all the way to Lansing....and then be rudely shouted down; lied to and gaveled out the door before your alloted time to publicly speak was over with? I'd have to question your presentation skills. A calmly asked, logically stated, question or concern has always been addressed nicely -- at least at the meetings since spring of '06.

"Show up"....why don't YOU show up when it comes time to answer the tough questions that I've brought forward on this board to date Uh, that's what I'm doing ...instead of taking the simpleton 'attack' route like every other arrogant and anonymous member of the council that you sit on with a bag over your head?

Please understand that I work a full and a part time job, then come home and have the familly, then I spend 2-3 hours on wheeling issues. That doesn't leave a lot of time for surfing the forums. When I'm here, I post, then I move on to the next thing.

"...Heaven knows we could use the help..."

What help????

'Help' in bashing every orv user out there who comes up with a legitimate question directed towards representative 'leaders' that they can't even contact without spending several years attempting to determine who they even ARE or what they are in effect telling others as to what 'we' want?

The MMRC aren't your leaders. GLFWDA are the leaders for the street legal 4x4s, ccc for the bikes, there are a couple of assns for the quads, but I havn't heard of any for the RUV user group. The MMRC is just a format for these different types of user groups to get together and discuss what's affecting our sports and try to figure out ways that we can all agree on to address the issues as they come up.

Where in the heck were you when I needed "help" in getting the damn orv advisory board to meet as scheduled right smack dab in the middle of the single most important period in Michigan's orv history?
Probably home, I wasn't interested in activism yet.
How about 'help' in forcing the DNR to publish the damn meeting minutes a full 8 weeks after that?
Or was "Mr. over 50 inch" so far 'in the know' during this critical time period....that us mere peons out here with no bag to put over our head ....weren't really a 'concern' in regards to even the most basic of tenants involving procedural protocol and our right to be heard as citizens of this state??
Same as above, didn't startt until spring of '06

"...Complaining doesn't constitute helping, either...."

You know something, Trail Fanatic...I'll complain any time I DAMN WELL LIKE when it comes to you and your MMRC 'buddies' supposedly representing me for all these years without so much as even a meeting minutes published and literally tens of millions now on the line affecting MY resource. You certainly have the right to complain, just remember that everyone else has the right to ignore you too. More people might be willing to listen if it was presented nicely.
How such a flat out arrogant attitude (wow, I've never been called arrogant before) such as yours can be so wide-spread in this community is certainly beyond me; yet your failure to tackle even ONE of the tough questions raised since I've had the pleasure of joining this forum; tells me that 'silence' is about all we're going to indeed receive from 'leaders' such as yourself while these millions do indeed get spent .

I can't tackle a question I don't know exists, and I don't know they exist until I get a chance to log on and read them . . . like tonight . . . and then I answer the one's I see and have an answer for.

"...Think long enough to come up with at LEAST one possible solution to each of your problems.
Maybe one will be "THE" one which finally works...."

Here you are avoiding every damn question about the problems themselves.....effectively BLOCKING every single discussion designed to dig away at the root of our problems while offering solutions at the same time...and all you've got for a 'comeback' is that each one of these is MY problem not 'worthy' of your input!

I mean, really TF....doesn't the above statement almost DEFINE the arrogance I've been describing here in almost graphic detail???
Can you possibly GET any more look-down-your-nose than that...or are you simply 'warming up'?

We ALL know there are problems. We could go on for days and days about the problems. It doesn't do any godd unless we can think of ways to FIX them, so why waste the time? Time that could be used more effectively writing a letter to a decision-maker about one of the many current issues. What we NEED are solutions.


"....One of the 'rules' (suggestions) of activism I picked up along the way (and like VERY much):

If you don't have a solution to offer,
You don't have a problem to bring up...."

Which is the biggest bunch of fluff politico spin ever thought up and one that has been used by rank amateur politicians for years.

99.9% of the folks bringing any issue before ANYBODY damn well possess a solution in mind and aren't a bit 'afraid' to tell you about it....IF GIVEN THE CHANCE TO DO SO.

this whole forum is a chance to do so, instead you choose to complain.

What usually gets in the way of these good folks ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHING THIS; is, again, 'spin meisters' like yourself continually attempting to divert any and all attention away from the subject at hand.
Want an example?
How about all the very simple and direct questions asked previously (there must be 'fifty' good ones by now where)....with nothing but a claim by you me, personally? that absolutely no solutions can be found in either the questions themselves or god forbid the massive amount of text put forth to date indeed explaining how we need to fix what is broken. You've lost me. Can you be more specific? I'm not sure what you're trying to reference here.

If you want to act like the rest of these guys and re-direct everything thrown at you with well worn out politico 'sayings'...have at it.

Yet I believe there are a few on this board who understand the facts brought forward to date here whether I get kicked off of this forum before explaining them further or not.

I don't like talking to long-respected members of these forums like this (That's OK, I'm new), believe me....vet this crap has gone on for far to long and it must stop before our kids lose any further interest in getting involved in these issues.
If these young people (I AM one of these young people!) have to work even half as hard as I have had to in wading through the cast of condescending characters standing in their way on these issues...who in the heck here believes that they will ever pick up even one of them and run with it??? It's not easy, but can be done.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by:

OneManBanned

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic
"Therf's nothing super-secret about the MMRC.
...."

Then 'Google' these anonymous bastards operating as our supposed voice for YEARS now and pay special attention to the heading "Concerns of trail riders delay changes in ORV rules...".

Got this:
Sorry, we couldn't find http://cns.jrn.msu.edu/articles/2005_1028/ORVCHANGESLANSING.HTML.
do you have any links that work?

Now tell me something Mr. "over 50 inch"....what in the heck machine do these goofs want 'banned' if they are not indeed regulated in WHAT manner?

And are you in possesssion of some kind of holier-than-thou 'proclamation' from these arrogant arses regarding the further use of my machine or god forbid the Polaris RZR that we here in the overall orv community are presently unaware of?

Uh, no proclamations here.

What's next?

ORVs on Road Shoulders
Placement recomendations for new trails and routes granted by the Legislature.

You and your anonymous buddies working hard into the night on seeking to 'ban' this grounbreaking machine from the 50" trails also?

Not working on it, but I have ot ask . . .
Is it more than 50 inches wide?

Seems to me that as our side-by-side 'representative' (by default of YOUR sport's enthusiasts)....you SURELY should have all manner of commentary regarding this new product that Polaris finally and thankfully shoved right back up your rear ends when you slammed the door in both their and OUR faces here in Michigan.(sorry, but in the less than 26 hours it took to kill this thing...NOT A 'PEON' MEMBER OF THIS ORV COMMUNITY EITHER KNEW ABOUT THIS BILL OR RECEIVED EVEN A FAIR OPPORTUNITY TO SO MUCH AS COMMENT ON SAME....AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW IT).

So now that you've Googled this 100% out-in-the-open represenative council that you're "Mr. over 50 inch" on.....how many and what references do you find explaining exactly what they or you believe in (beyond feel good politico speak) and more importantly...can you ascertain just HOW they are representing us with all these 10's of millions of dollars now on the line?

The MMRC can do nothing but make recomendations (like any onther group or user) to the Department. It is the Department who spends the money. There was a great deal of discussino about the budget at the last Advisory board meeting though. It sounds like they might form a Sub-committee to look into long-term funding of the State ORV program.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by OneManBanned:

Adding to the comment above regarding our community representative's suggestion to ban these 'new' machines (not motorcycles obviously) or definitely by gosh further regulate their use....is there somebody on your super-secret council addressing Mr. Moll's pressing issue here (page 4) immediately before the last orv advisory board meeting adjourned? http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dn...s_179305_7.pdf

[IMG]res://ieframe.dll/info_48.png[/IMG] The webpage cannot be found

HTTP 404
Most likely causes:
  • <LI id=causeErrorInAddress>There might be a typing error in the address.
  • If you clicked on a link, it may be out of date.
What you can try:

[IMG]res://ieframe.dll/bullet.png[/IMG] Retype the address.

[IMG]res://ieframe.dll/bullet.png[/IMG] Go back to the previous page.

[IMG]res://ieframe.dll/bullet.png[/IMG] Go to www.michigan.gov and look for the information you want.

[IMG]res://ieframe.dll/down.png[/IMG]More information

Another link that doesn't work.


Is it your job Mr "over 50 inch" to contact both the NOHVCC and the CPSC (and I'd like to know who in the heck suggested that course of action to brush this inexplainable outburst quickly under the rug ) regarding Mr. Moll's insistence that something by gosh be done about this???

No.

...and Michigan orv enthusiasts have allowed this guy's term to expire in December without so much as a 'peep' from ANYBODY in the orv community......for exactly what reason?

I don't have a reason, do you?

Yeah, we need one of the few true orv representives we have on that board writing letters to Polaris, Yamaha and the all the other manufacturers out there as to how they should damn well build their products.

And you guys expect that we should all just 'leave it up to you' and certainly quit asking these pesky questions as to just who represents us or what they have to say in meetings with others even more important to this sport?
NO! don't leave it up to us, I already said -- JOIN US!
We can use every person willing to volunteer.

By "we", I mean the orv community.
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Old February 16th, 2007, 12:18 AM   #9
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Cat now got your tongue as it obviously has Trail Fanatic with his 'one post and out' proclamation?....I thought so.

I love how you guys come on in here and obviously take what must be your best shot....yet slink right back into your holes when the sad facts of this sordid mess are thrown right down at your feet.
You have to wait until I log on (usually the next evening) to get another reply.
I don't have time to 'live' on here.

Others probably don't either.

I like how you turn
'logging on, reading a new thread, responding, and logging off for the evening'

into

"come on in here and obviously take what must be your best shot....yet slink right back into your holes when the sad facts of this sordid mess are thrown right down at your feet."
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Old February 16th, 2007, 07:54 AM   #10
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Pat, if you ever meet this this jackass you will see it is not worth your time to respond to him. He thinks the world is against him and the ORV board and the MMRC are out to get him.

And by the way John, I am a MMRC member, see no secrets!
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Old February 16th, 2007, 08:21 AM   #11
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I copied myself from the other post where thie guy made it known he is retarded.

"onemanbanned, name says it all! This guy has been banned from the very forum where he could have made a difference. These fullsize users here could care less about your Rzr or your Rhino.

Now he has to resort to coming here and running his uneducated lips into some form of propaganda that everyone is against him.

I will spell it out for you right here John NO ONE WANTS YOU TO KNOW WHO IS ON THE MMRC BECUASE WE DONT WANT PSYCOS STALKING US. The world is definatley against you after all, we dont like mentally unstable, socially inept jackasses."
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Old February 16th, 2007, 02:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironman View Post
"...And by the way John, I am a MMRC member....."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironman View Post
"...NO ONE WANTS YOU TO KNOW WHO IS ON THE MMRC BECUASE WE DONT WANT PSYCOS STALKING US....."
I rest my case.

Goodbye.
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Old February 16th, 2007, 07:13 PM   #13
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I witnessed onemanbanned attempt to talk at an orv advisory board meeting. He immediately went into a tirade that was nothing but pure yelling and accusations. His yelling got him no good.

trail fanatic is trying to have a logical discussion. I hope it works....
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Old February 16th, 2007, 07:49 PM   #14
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Granted I'm the mod in ths section and I would prefer you guys not go down the road to name calling. I would hope that EVERYone would behave so I don't have to lock a thread. Please show a little repect for differing oppinions and let the facts find they're way to the surface.


John I did apply for the "At Large user" spot on the board about a year ago when it was still open. maybe next time. I don't have enough free time to be a full time ORV club president of something along those lines. I already spend way to much time here.
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Old February 16th, 2007, 08:05 PM   #15
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I was also at the ORV advisory meeting that the attempt was made to widen all trails to 60". The dollar amount was outrageous to widen trails to gain a few inches and still not allow full access to all users. I would be able to support changing to wider trails at the time they needed maintenance or when new trails were added, but not to convert all miles at one time.
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Old February 16th, 2007, 11:27 PM   #16
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[QUOTE=Nvrenuf;430805]"...I was also at the ORV advisory meeting that the attempt was made to widen all trails to 60"..."

While I respect your version of that 'after-the fact' event as you saw it; the defeat of this groundbreaking bill was accomplished in less than 26 hours and bragged about using that same time frame by the MMRC through a press release on the AMA-D14 website and elsewhere.

"...The dollar amount was outrageous to widen trails to gain a few inches and still not allow full access to all users...."

There was never a dollar amount published anywhere that I am aware of. Could you please share some info on the above while listing when/where this important study was done and exactly what non-partisan group performed this through what funding source?

This was not about giving the vast majority of machines out there (most already at or near 50") the safe width needed to navigate these trails.
The defeat of this important bill was about forcing the only selfish minority group out there into finally working on these trails together with the majority while molding the system into a true multi-use one that EVERYBODY could then access as should be their right.

What the full-sizers don't seem to 'get'...is the fact that a united light 2 and 4-wheel category has one heck of a lot more power to immediately help and stand by their other brothers in the sport who require the special treatment needed that these arrogant cyclists never deserved in the first place through their nasty change in attitude over the years.

There is not an orv enthusiast outside the motorcycle community out there that doesn't respect the special needs of these bigger trucks.
Yet it is the heavy 4 wheel drive enthusiast's responsibility to not act like the cyclist's have done and divide this community even further by supporting their crybaby "It's MY trail" crap any longer.
You folks have the power to finally shove these bastards into a corner and support a unified community instead of effectively ignoring what goes on in the weight class below you while believing that everybody seeking a trail of their own doesn't affect your progress whatsoever.
It's called standing up for the concept of working together on the same trails...and we're ALL guilty of ignoring this legacy-driven premise.

"...I would be able to support changing to wider trails at the time they needed maintenance or when new trails were added, but not to convert all miles at one time...."

I hope that i'm putting this politely...yet when these arrogant cycle leaders describe the trail system as being raped by the 4-wheelers and propose shutting down certain trails for "study" while they inexplainably propose thrashing out new ones RIGHT BESIDE THEM as a solution...I think it's about "time they need maintenance" in my book.

As for 'when' the new trails are added...well that time is about 'now' with about 750 more miles on the board and a representative council in control of our proposal to the state that won't allow public input as to that suggestion.

And as for converting the mileage at one time....you can't send a funding proposal team into fee increase negotiations who refuse to (and this is key) properly assess the overall cost of anything....if the very team itself is opposed to opening up the system 5 inches on either side for all to access regardless of the cost in the first place!
Especially when these same people refuse to evaluate the needed maintenenace privitization facet in their cost figures; as this even further erodes their power by shoving them away from the funding trough while forcing us all to work TOGETHER on the same trails behind these new and dependable contractors!.

Everybody's been paying 16 bucks a year for this massive sytem in disrepair that has been suffering through flat sticker sales for how many years now....yet every one of them wants to add 750 more miles; ride the shoulders of the road and by gosh be portrayed as being the 'gold standard' when it comes to environmental responsibility; overall maintenance standards; enforcement and safety. (and don't forget the huge amount of time and monies sucked away from the resource to babysit the "needed" southeastern Michigan riding area whether it be pay-to-play or not).

It's an environmental mess just waiting to happen and the attitude above says a lot more about who we truly are than I for one am ready to investigate further as an enthusiast.
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Old February 16th, 2007, 11:38 PM   #17
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Yeah. Got it. Thanks.
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Old February 17th, 2007, 12:05 AM   #18
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John I did apply for the "At Large user" spot on the board about a year ago when it was still open. maybe next time. I don't have enough free time to be a full time ORV club president of something along those lines. I already spend way to much time here.
I agree with both the last two points and sincerely want you to know that I truly respect the fact that you have allowed me to have my say on these hugely important matters facing all of us (thanks to the owners also). I'm also proud to say that I know someone who applied for that board position; as the first DNR employee I ever ran into years ago described the membership and structure then as "a goat rodeo.....good luck to ya!".

Love the debate and think it is important; yet I will leave you guys now to sit on the sidelines and see how this plays out. I'm spending way to much time on these issues also, Dana and if I knew 10 other guys or gals like yourself who were willing to not attack everybody with a contrary opinion....I'd most likely be with every one of you until the end.

The 3 things that I wish I could have accomplished for the sake of those seeking to get involved in the future:

#1) The creation of an advisory board actually responsible for answering the legitimate questions put forward to them containing members (less the sherrif) who gladly display their contact info as a means to that end.

#2) An insistence that all meetings be held when scheduled; that all debate be properly recorded and that all board members serve their terms as published with the application process for new members and new ideas comencing well before any one term expires.

#3) That no one outside representative council be allowed to approach the board without full disclosure as to how said group works both within the political limitations of their respective non-profit(s) and the shadowy world of anonymous groups designed to skirt such limits in the first place. (if you want to 'represent' ....do so out here in the light of day like a man and make publicly availiable your views on each particular issue that we face as if you are indeed proud of same).

I did indeed fail at each one of these and many more procedural ideals I believe are required for this community to proceed both respectfully and professionally in the eyes of those expecting nothing less...yet I again appreciate the opportunity to give my opinion on these matters here with very few attacks overall as to my character.

Thanks again and good luck to you, Dana along with others I won't get the chance to thank,

John

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Old February 17th, 2007, 06:55 AM   #19
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John I do my best so everyone has a place to where they can post up their gripes and other conserns. the key here that EVERYONE should respect that I try and make it fair. so far I would say most have kept to the manners of the board and that some have gone a little beyond. I do hope you can use the forum here without incident and that everyone would see that we can work out our differences.
the one thing I have issue with is the name calling and ensightment of fights verbal or other wise.
I hope the people who would do such things would show a little respect to me most of all for doing all the crappy parts of this job...like reading everything in everyones posts no matter how mind numbing.
so with that, feel free to do your part for our sport, and at best we all may get something out of it.
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Old February 20th, 2007, 11:19 PM   #20
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Holy Cow! I started to laugh halfway through...man, if you put all that typing into the form of a letter, typed calmer, and didn't attack people you could help everyones cause!

But honestly, call me simple minded, but I have NO IDEA what half you typed actually meant!

I was one of those few that got to see you give public comment, I didn't know who you were or what you wanted....still don't really....but from my perspective, take some calming drugs or lay off the caffeine or something and slow down and address people like you don't want to kill them!!! Just reading this, I get the feeling your yelling at everyone!

Wow! Intense!

Edit: Ok, I read more, and tried to understand it.....this whole thing sounds like a vent. Your ticked, I can understand that. I think your ticked at the wrong people thou! Your trying to attack people that are doing their best to "infiltrate" the DNR world! Its so screwed up on their end, yes snowmobilers seem to get treated the best, that ORV's aren't considered profitable?? Or something that helps Michigans economy. The point is, ORV's, Bikes, and Full Sizes are all waaay down the list of "important" things, we get the short end on everything. It won't change. Not until that image goes away of us being something to have to deal with at the end of the day when everyone is tired and wants to go home!

That 60" bill wasn't any good from my point of view. I was under the impression that it meant that we had to come up with money to modify ALL trails in Michigan to meet this requirement. I would have been for it if it meant any new trails had to meet this requirement....was I understanding this wrong?

Face it, we are all fighting for trails, against each other, why should I ignore my own desires and push money and miles away from my goal?

Lucas

Last edited by lgottler; February 20th, 2007 at 11:43 PM.
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