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Old June 18th, 2014, 07:51 AM   #21
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I view the Bible ( as well as any other ancient documents ) as historical accounts. There are going to be inaccuracies as events are filtered thorough the eyes of the observer, or in the case of many ancient writings, through several re-tellings.

This is why I cannot accept the writings of the Bible as 'Gospel', so to speak, since there have been multiple human filters, and not all had the purest intentions in their re-tellings.
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Old June 18th, 2014, 11:55 AM   #22
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Let's pretend that God is the creator of the universe. He says "these are the correct morals to follow". Those morals are not Subjective, this is his world, his rules, his stuff. Who are we to question those morals?
Yes, if God created the universe, his rules would not be subjective. I would expect you, as a believer of the god described in the Bible, to feel that way. But from my point of view, you had free choice to accept or reject the biblical god, and could have just as well gone with Allah, or Yhwh, or Buddha, or Zeus, or any of the others "gods" described by other cultures, and the moral rules will be different.
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Old June 18th, 2014, 12:02 PM   #23
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Do you guys accept the ideology of Socrates? Because the only existing documents of his work were written quite a bit removed from his originals. Who's not to say his work was augmented by the scribe.

Not to mention if it did say "this book authored by God" you would still not accept it because of the ramifications of what that acceptance would be.
I would regard our knowledge of the ideology of Socrates and our knowledge of the ideology of Jesus equally. Both may have inaccuracies due to copying and translation issues.
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Old June 20th, 2014, 03:18 PM   #24
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its funny that people will believe what is written about Julius Caesar who died about 40 years before Jesus. We teach school kids all about the roman empire as fact. So why is that info good but the bible not?
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Old June 20th, 2014, 06:07 PM   #25
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its funny that people will believe what is written about Julius Caesar who died about 40 years before Jesus. We teach school kids all about the roman empire as fact. So why is that info good but the bible not?
Because no one is trying to tell you that Julius Caesar was an all powerful being whom belief in, and prayer to, will allow you to pass into heaven.

No one disputes that 2000 years ago a man named Jesus of Nazareth walked the earth. It's the magical stuff that sparks debate.
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Old June 21st, 2014, 12:55 AM   #26
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its funny that people will believe what is written about Julius Caesar who died about 40 years before Jesus. We teach school kids all about the roman empire as fact. So why is that info good but the bible not?
I would regard the stories of both men with equal skepticism.
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Old June 21st, 2014, 06:39 AM   #27
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I would regard the stories of both men with equal skepticism.
Suppose that is one way to disreguard history.
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Old June 24th, 2014, 04:39 PM   #28
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Suppose that is one way to disreguard history.
Regard equally, not disregard.
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Old June 24th, 2014, 05:14 PM   #29
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I really doubt that geo. Washington cut down a cherry tree and told the truth.
I really doubt that Geo. Bush Sr. meant it when he said "no new taxes"
I really doubt that Pearl Harbor was a truly sneak attack.
I really doubt at least half the stories about Abe Lincoln's childhood.
I really doubt stories about Santa, the Easter Bunny, Elves, Leprechauns, etc.
///
catch my drift?
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Old June 24th, 2014, 08:23 PM   #30
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So, getting back to the original post, how many of you that say our morals are subjective lock your doors?
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Old June 24th, 2014, 08:51 PM   #31
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Again, I don't lock my doors, I have nothing worth stealing.
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Old June 25th, 2014, 09:29 AM   #32
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Again, I don't lock my doors, I have nothing worth stealing.
Do you leave your keys in your car when you're shopping?


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Old June 25th, 2014, 09:32 AM   #33
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Do you leave your keys in your car when you're shopping?


I could. I'm driving a 94 F150 with a worn out 5 speed shifter. I can barely get the thing in gear.

I don't lock it, though.
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Old June 25th, 2014, 10:12 AM   #34
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So, getting back to the original post, how many of you that say our morals are subjective lock your doors?
it's the morals of the other guy I am concerned about
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Old June 26th, 2014, 11:43 AM   #35
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So, getting back to the original post, how many of you that say our morals are subjective lock your doors?
I am failing to understand this. Because I think morals are somewhat subjective i.e. not everyone has the same morals, I lock my doors to protect myself from people whose morals are different. If morals were some universal absolute, there would be no need for door locks.

If morals are absolute, they should be the same every time and place. Do you think slavery is moral? I don't, but there has been times and places where it was accepted. Do you think it's moral to stone someone to death for committing homosexual acts or adultery? I don't but there has been times and places where that was accepted. Do you think it's moral to kill someone because they changed religions? There are times and places there that is considered acceptable.

So if morals are absolute, why aren't they the same in every time and place?
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Old June 27th, 2014, 06:01 PM   #36
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I am failing to understand this. Because I think morals are somewhat subjective i.e. not everyone has the same morals, I lock my doors to protect myself from people whose morals are different. If morals were some universal absolute, there would be no need for door locks.

If morals are absolute, they should be the same every time and place. Do you think slavery is moral? I don't, but there has been times and places where it was accepted. Do you think it's moral to stone someone to death for committing homosexual acts or adultery? I don't but there has been times and places where that was accepted. Do you think it's moral to kill someone because they changed religions? There are times and places there that is considered acceptable.

So if morals are absolute, why aren't they the same in every time and place?
Going on that same line of thinking (except the opposite directions), couldn't we rationalize just about anything based on what we thought was or was not appropriate for the time and place? Do you see how that could become dangerous? (not saying your example couldn't).

Are also talking about morals, or laws based in the morals?
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Old June 28th, 2014, 10:27 AM   #37
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Ok then, why do so many religious people feel that it is impossible for the non religious to have morals?
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Old June 28th, 2014, 11:05 AM   #38
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Ok then, why do so many religious people feel that it is impossible for the non religious to have morals?
I don't think the question is "is it possible", the question is why and where did they come from? I think we've gone over that a couple hundred times though.

And, as I've mentioned before, in a Darwinian thinking mind, why should we take care of the weak? Let's breed only the strongest of our species so we can become stronger. Let the weak die.

The argument against that would be because :

1. the only reason we're still around is because we're a social species and that's what makes us great. An alone human being couldn't survive against other species of predators. (which we can)
2. There is good in us and our ancient ancestors (the ones that beat each other with clubs and fought over land) decided to make laws that would reflect that good. Those are the same people that are often referenced to in the OT that many non-believers call out as barbaric and 'un-loving'. These people, when not fighting other countries and kingdoms, just decided we should treat everybody with a set of laws based on the idea of 'being good'?


I hope you see the irony.

I hold to the thinking that our Morals had to come from God because I don't see any reason our ancestors would want to be civilized if it gave them a disadvantage in war or furthering thier kingdoms......Maybe I'm just off though.
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Old June 28th, 2014, 11:10 AM   #39
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Nope, you are right on the money.
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Old June 28th, 2014, 12:07 PM   #40
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Or, because there is 'strength in numbers', and that as humans moved from hunter/gatherer to agrarian society, it became apparent that certain skills (intelligence to figure out the best time to plant, for instance) were beneficial to the group as a whole.

Religion came after as a way to explain to the masses what was occurring in nature.


'Survival of the fittest' really has little to do with physical strength or weakness. It has to do with the ability to pass on genes- those that reproduce will survive over the long run.
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