We are no longer NO. 1 - Page 5 - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

Politics, Government, or Religion Chat Bring your flamesuit!

greatlakes4x4.com is the premier Great Lakes 4x4 Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 9th, 2014, 12:35 PM   #81
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,551
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
My point is everyone is an engineer these days, it's not the position it once was. A quck tour through most any engineering department will prove my point
Just like many other professions, engineering has changed a lot over the past few decades. Long gone are the days of an engineer using pencil, paper and a slide rule to do calculations. So yes, it is not the position it once was.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old May 9th, 2014, 12:45 PM   #82
whiterhino
I'm not old, honest...
 
whiterhino's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-07-06
Location: Davisburg MI
Posts: 22,052
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
Chrysler in Auburn Hills, while the office setting is nice, the amount of people they have solve STUPID problems and how they justify it is beyond scope. The red tape, the amount of hands they have involved in project make it nothing short of amazing they get anything done. Combine that with the management structure and all the stupid job titles and good grief. Another was at a rapid prototyping facility. I watched an engineer totally fubar a project because HE spouted off that HE was right and the rest of the people(non-engineer titled people) were wrong. Even when HE and the rest of his engineer cohorts were proven wrong they still didn't admit defeat and tried to back door sabotage the project.
You think this is new?
__________________
GLFWDA member since 1979.
Member Southern Michigan Rock Crawlers.
whiterhino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 12:48 PM   #83
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,551
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
Chrysler in Auburn Hills, while the office setting is nice, the amount of people they have solve STUPID problems and how they justify it is beyond scope. The red tape, the amount of hands they have involved in project make it nothing short of amazing they get anything done. Combine that with the management structure and all the stupid job titles and good grief. Another was at a rapid prototyping facility. I watched an engineer totally fubar a project because HE spouted off that HE was right and the rest of the people(non-engineer titled people) were wrong. Even when HE and the rest of his engineer cohorts were proven wrong they still didn't admit defeat and tried to back door sabotage the project.
I wouldn't claim to be able to watch what happens like lots of work places, like police stations or courts, and be able to understand exactly what is going on.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 01:13 PM   #84
Mr.Green456123
I can levitate!
 
Mr.Green456123's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-29-05
Location: Nort Keralina
Posts: 8,226
iTrader: (6)
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
Chrysler in Auburn Hills, while the office setting is nice, the amount of people they have solve STUPID problems and how they justify it is beyond scope. The red tape, the amount of hands they have involved in project make it nothing short of amazing they get anything done. Combine that with the management structure and all the stupid job titles and good grief. Another was at a rapid prototyping facility. I watched an engineer totally fubar a project because HE spouted off that HE was right and the rest of the people(non-engineer titled people) were wrong. Even when HE and the rest of his engineer cohorts were proven wrong they still didn't admit defeat and tried to back door sabotage the project.
Yes Hancho, Chrysler (and all the other auto manufacturers) is doing a terrible job managing their work force and streamlining their engineering efforts. They are obviously just lucky to be making the Billions of $s they do each year. Hopefully they will figure out a better way of building their products soon.
Mr.Green456123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 01:31 PM   #85
feva4u
LCG
 
feva4u's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-01-07
Location: Petoskey, MI
Posts: 10,494
iTrader: (12)
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Default

__________________
My Jeep
feva4u is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 02:01 PM   #86
High Center Hancho
rack tap re-rack click
 
High Center Hancho's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-10-07
Location: Genesee County
Posts: 13,479
iTrader: (40)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Green View Post
Yes Hancho, Chrysler (and all the other auto manufacturers) is doing a terrible job managing their work force and streamlining their engineering efforts. They are obviously just lucky to be making the Billions of $s they do each year. Hopefully they will figure out a better way of building their products soon.
Don't you have some math problems to do?
High Center Hancho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 02:07 PM   #87
Rob the plumber
Licensed master plumber
 
Rob the plumber's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-14-06
Location: New Baltimore, Michigan
Posts: 5,774
iTrader: (34)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

I'm finishing up a new construction home for an engineer right now. This job can't end any sooner.
Rob the plumber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 02:58 PM   #88
Haggar
Covered in mud...
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: Oxford, MI
Posts: 17,758
iTrader: (57)
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swampjeep View Post
not sure if that is directed at me or any one of us "designer" but I agree with you, I've often heard designers talk about how the company would be nothing with out them, well, I also see the company would be nothing without also having good engineers, manufacturing, sales, etc. they are all part of the process.

and yes, to corral it all together is more important then any one of these jobs alone, that's why they make the big bucks
More thinking about my mechanical and electrical/PCB designers here. I never worked with you or Bruce in an office, just on the trail


I look at it this way:

A PCB design is going to want to optimize the circuit board. He's going to do everything the way he wants to make his circuit board perfect.

But.

We don't sell circuit boards. We sell instrument clusters. I need to optimize the final product.

So thats nice, he can live in his world, and tell me how if I did it his way, it'd be so much better. Thats nice. But if my way still passes an emissions test, and it saves 2 weeks of work, its better for the overall project, even if its not satisfying his ego.

Does he understand about the capabilities of my suppliers, and how I need to 'dumb down' the design to allow more suppliers to be capable of manufactering the part? Does he understand our global design reuse strategy? Does he understand the rules I need to keep to work with the physical soldering lines in my plant? Not really. So he thinks I'm being stubborn and not listening to him. No, its just that I have consider many more points of view than he does.

Maybe I'm compromising, making an electrical part more expensive or more complicated, but it saves money on mechanical parts or software, or manufacturing, or avoids a purchasing risk, etc.

I'm sure you see it in mechanical. Do people understand mold flow limitations, gate placement, draft angles, etc?



What I've seen in general is that lower income people almost always think higher income people are stupid or assholes/bitches, or just got lucky.

People who don't actually design things for mass production always think they could do it better.

Last edited by Haggar; May 9th, 2014 at 03:02 PM.
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 03:21 PM   #89
Haggar
Covered in mud...
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: Oxford, MI
Posts: 17,758
iTrader: (57)
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Default

Its not that hard to see, why as a country, we are starting to lag.

Americans are lazy.

Too lazy to make effort to teach their kids. OR get involved with their kids school. Or to buckle down and get an education when they are in the higher grades and college and are mature enough to not need your parent's pushing you.

Too lazy to cook their own food.

Too lazy to do the right thing, they just want to do the easy thing. By the cheap shit at wal mart. Then go hit McDonalds.

Too lazy to want to be great. How many people really try to be great at what they do? Not many. I have worked in many blue collar, and many white color jobs. Regardless, you always have a large percentage that are just 'doing their job'. That doesn't make us #1, it makes you average. We all seem to hate those rich athletes. But they are rich because they strive for greatness. You don't get to be Bill Gates or Steve Jobs without putting in exceptional effort and time.

We refuse to believe in things that are inconvient or contrary to our beliefs. And we lag technologically by clinging to old ways, rather than delaing with some of this (resources, energy, etc)

We lack perspective. How many Americans have really travelled the world and seen if we are really #1?

I personally think education is the biggest thing. You have to be smart. If you want to bring politics into it, then look at the parties that want to kill science. Sorry, the world isn't 8000 yrs old, and Evolution isn't a theory. We aren't keeping up in science and math. The world is technical. Science and Math matter.

And the world is different. Global shipping and logistics and electronic infrastructure mean everything that made us great 150, 100, 50 years ago is obsolete and does not apply.

To be #1, you must be great. You must be the best. Ask yourself in the course of your day, how many people do you see that are really trying that hard?
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 05:16 PM   #90
Rob the plumber
Licensed master plumber
 
Rob the plumber's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-14-06
Location: New Baltimore, Michigan
Posts: 5,774
iTrader: (34)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Well said, sir.
Rob the plumber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 06:25 PM   #91
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,551
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
More thinking about my mechanical and electrical/PCB designers here. I never worked with you or Bruce in an office, just on the trail


I look at it this way:

A PCB design is going to want to optimize the circuit board. He's going to do everything the way he wants to make his circuit board perfect.

But.

We don't sell circuit boards. We sell instrument clusters. I need to optimize the final product.

So thats nice, he can live in his world, and tell me how if I did it his way, it'd be so much better. Thats nice. But if my way still passes an emissions test, and it saves 2 weeks of work, its better for the overall project, even if its not satisfying his ego.

Does he understand about the capabilities of my suppliers, and how I need to 'dumb down' the design to allow more suppliers to be capable of manufactering the part? Does he understand our global design reuse strategy? Does he understand the rules I need to keep to work with the physical soldering lines in my plant? Not really. So he thinks I'm being stubborn and not listening to him. No, its just that I have consider many more points of view than he does.

Maybe I'm compromising, making an electrical part more expensive or more complicated, but it saves money on mechanical parts or software, or manufacturing, or avoids a purchasing risk, etc.

I'm sure you see it in mechanical. Do people understand mold flow limitations, gate placement, draft angles, etc?



What I've seen in general is that lower income people almost always think higher income people are stupid or assholes/bitches, or just got lucky.

People who don't actually design things for mass production always think they could do it better.
All design involved lots of compromises. Sometimes it's gets annoying to have to give up on what seems like a great idea for reasons you don't understand.

Most of my design career has been in powertrain and chassis design and packaging. Where I often see engineers going wrong is where it involved the physical properties of the vehicle. Sometimes it's not having a good sense of scale, as in not understanding the size of things and wanting things put there they just won't fix, or less often spec'ing a part that is just too small for the job. Other times it's focusing to much on just their system and not understanding the packaging environment it has to go into. Good designers are always paying attention to that, and probably know it better than the engineers.

But mostly let me do my job. Many times I've had an engineer come to me with a list of changes they want, only to have those changes not work out or not solve the problem. If they had just told me what the problem if I can usually work out a solution in less time. Also, I have no problem going through my basic thought process that lead me to the design I ended up with, but at some point you'r going to have to trust me that I know how to design. We make thousands of minor decisions along the way, there's no way I can take you though each one.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 06:28 PM   #92
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,551
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
Its not that hard to see, why as a country, we are starting to lag.

Americans are lazy.

Too lazy ...
I agree. And too much watching and not enough doing.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 08:05 PM   #93
High Center Hancho
rack tap re-rack click
 
High Center Hancho's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-10-07
Location: Genesee County
Posts: 13,479
iTrader: (40)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
I agree. And too much watching and not enough doing.
Thank goodness engineers are too stupid to figure this out all while attempting to justify there position to everyone around them. It not about hating, it's about reality. All those math classes people complain that are sooo hard to pass. I've got news for you, people pass them everyday.
High Center Hancho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 08:13 PM   #94
poncho62
97 GMC
 
poncho62's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-23-13
Location: Ontario
Posts: 123
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/
poncho62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 08:23 PM   #95
BlooMule
Jet powered
 
BlooMule's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-08-05
Location: a mile from the shithole
Posts: 26,031
iTrader: (12)
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
Thank goodness engineers are too stupid to figure this out all while attempting to justify there position to everyone around them. It not about hating, it's about reality. All those math classes people complain that are sooo hard to pass. I've got news for you, people pass them everyday.
__________________
-rw-rw-rw
BlooMule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 09:54 PM   #96
Haggar
Covered in mud...
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: Oxford, MI
Posts: 17,758
iTrader: (57)
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
All design involved lots of compromises. Sometimes it's gets annoying to have to give up on what seems like a great idea for reasons you don't understand.

Most of my design career has been in powertrain and chassis design and packaging. Where I often see engineers going wrong is where it involved the physical properties of the vehicle. Sometimes it's not having a good sense of scale, as in not understanding the size of things and wanting things put there they just won't fix, or less often spec'ing a part that is just too small for the job. Other times it's focusing to much on just their system and not understanding the packaging environment it has to go into. Good designers are always paying attention to that, and probably know it better than the engineers.

But mostly let me do my job. Many times I've had an engineer come to me with a list of changes they want, only to have those changes not work out or not solve the problem. If they had just told me what the problem if I can usually work out a solution in less time. Also, I have no problem going through my basic thought process that lead me to the design I ended up with, but at some point you'r going to have to trust me that I know how to design. We make thousands of minor decisions along the way, there's no way I can take you though each one.
Perhaps your definition of designer is different than mine. Designers in our company draw things. They don't really design them.

Just like engineer means different things. For example, there is a release engineer at Chrysler. They don't know design at all. But our engineers, who take their wants and turn them into reality, they are creating the real design. Our 'designers' are CAD operators, they draw up the parts, or flesh out a part within parameters laid our by our engineers. Their work must be reviewed by the lead engineers on the program. Then the technical project leader (kind of a uber engineer) must watch all the disciplines to make sure they are all on track.

Its not meant to demean anyone. People have different jobs. What I know in life is: when people always say 'oh why don't they do this, they don't know what they are doing...' if those people were right, then they'd be the ones doing it. Period. Companies don't last and make money keeping idiots designing and subjugating the smart people.

Last edited by Haggar; May 9th, 2014 at 10:08 PM.
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 10:10 PM   #97
High Center Hancho
rack tap re-rack click
 
High Center Hancho's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-10-07
Location: Genesee County
Posts: 13,479
iTrader: (40)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
Perhaps your definition of designer is different than mine. Designers in our company draw things. They don't really design them.

Just like engineer means different things. For example, there is a release engineer at Chrysler. They don't know design at all. But our engineers, who take their wants and turn them into reality, they are creating the real design. Our 'designers' are CAD operators, they draw up the parts, or flesh out a part within parameters laid our by our engineers. Their work must be reviewed by the lead engineers on the program. Then the technical project leader (kind of a uber engineer) must watch all the disciplines to make sure they are all on track.

Its not meant to demean anyone. People have different jobs. What I know in life is: when people always say 'oh why don't they do this, they don't know what they are doing...' if those people were right, then they'd be the ones doing it. Period. Companies don't last and make money keeping idiots designing and subjugating the smart people.


Really? I wish it was that simple but it isn't. If it was as simple as you say then what happened with ford and the my touch system?
High Center Hancho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9th, 2014, 10:15 PM   #98
dougstephvoor
Supreme Chancelor!
 
dougstephvoor's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-21-10
Location: Saranac/Michigan
Posts: 2,225
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob the plumber View Post
I'm glad that plumbing work can't be shipped overseas.
When we are all so broke that there is no pot to piss in and no window to throw it out. There will be no money to pay a plumber. The West coast of Liberia is so paluted with human feacal matter there is fear of an out break of black death. With the money goes the luxurious life and the plumbing.
__________________
Supreme Chancellor!

Last edited by dougstephvoor; May 9th, 2014 at 10:18 PM.
dougstephvoor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2014, 07:34 AM   #99
wrath
Project Antitube
 
wrath's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-09-05
Location: Chelsea, MI
Posts: 472
iTrader: (2)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to wrath
Default

At my work the "designers" are CAD operators that take items/layouts/specifications and make up pretty packages that are efficient and cost-effective to have someone else manufacture. There are 3-6 "designers" working for one enginerd.

I'd say for every retreaded enginerd there are 3-6 designers that are retreaded. The only time the team fails is when it's full of retreads. And those teams usually have a revolving door with retreads coming and going.

If you want to talk about retreads, I'm an Engineer that works in IT (because it pays WAY better than enginerding) that supports hundreds of Enginerds, designers, and other people. You would be surprised the number of people under 35 that can't type. This is in a day and age where if you are under 35 you *had* to turn in your essays in grade school typewritten. This is just the beginning of retreadation.
wrath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2014, 07:59 AM   #100
kickstand
sHaMoNe!
 
kickstand's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-20-06
Location: fenton
Posts: 31,748
iTrader: (46)
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
Really? I wish it was that simple but it isn't. If it was as simple as you say then what happened with ford and the my touch system?
Well for one it's microsoft based Then add in that it's a Ford Product and that = poopy radio.
kickstand is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:42 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Page generated in 0.48509 seconds with 82 queries