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Old November 20th, 2013, 11:03 AM   #1
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Default New Vs. Old Tolerence

Why the New tolerance is actually intolerant

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After the release of our book Real Marriage, my wife, Grace, and I had media interviews set up with a number of folks in the mainstream press. But the interview I was most concerned about was with CNN’s Piers Morgan, who seems to enjoy kicking evangelicals as much as David Beckham likes kicking soccer balls.

A few days prior to my interview, Kirk Cameron had been a guest on the show, and Piers took him to the proverbial woodshed for his biblical views on homosexuality and gay marriage. I decided to handle the show alone, rather than subject my lovely wife to what I was sure would amount to juggling live grenades in front of an international audience.

To be honest, I feared that if Piers Morgan was unkind to my wife, I would lose my cool and our interview would result in a legendary YouTube clip featuring me vaulting over the desk while yelling my dad’s old construction-worker words to extend what the apostle Paul calls “the right hand of fellowship.”

By God’s grace, however, things went well with Piers. He was an enjoyable guy for the most part. We are both Irish, formerly Catholic and stubborn, so it felt familiar. I brought him a nice study Bible, and he thanked me, saying I was the first person to ever give him such a gift. The show was edited fairly, though I was bummed they took out the segment where I told him that one day he would be sitting across the desk from Jesus Christ to answer God’s questions and that he was not ready for that day.

Which Definition of Tolerance?

At one point, our discussion turned to the subject of tolerance. Piers gave a lot of weight to the issue, as do many in our culture today:

Piers Morgan: Do you think you’re a tolerant kind of guy?

Mark Driscoll: I love people very much and—

Morgan: That’s not the same thing.

Driscoll: Well, how do you disagree with people that you love? That’s a very difficult issue for everybody, but for a pastor in particular, because—

Morgan: But do you preach tolerance?

Driscoll: I’ve preached that we should love our neighbor, that we should accept—

Morgan: But tolerance. Tolerance in particular.

Driscoll: You keep hammering it. What do you mean by tolerance?

Morgan: Tolerating people who may have a lifestyle or a belief that you don’t agree with.

Driscoll: Yes, we have to. When Jesus says, “Love your neighbor,” He knows you’re not going to agree with all your neighbors, but He wants you to love them, to seek good for them, to care for them.

Our conflict was around the old definition of tolerance (which I hold) and the new definition of tolerance (which he holds). Theologian D.A. Carson explains how the definition of tolerance has changed from accepting that lots of people have different views, some of which are wrong, to agreeing that all views are equally true.

The Old Tolerance vs. the New Tolerance

The old view of tolerance assumed that (1) there is objective truth that can be known; (2) various people, groups and perspectives each think they know what that objective truth is and (3) as people/groups disagree, dialogue and debate their conflicting views of the truth, everyone involved will have an opportunity to learn, grow, change and possibly arrive together at the truth.

The new tolerance is different from the old tolerance. The new view of tolerance assumes that (1) there is no objective truth that can be known; (2) various people, groups and perspectives do not have the truth but only what they believe to be the truth and (3) various people, groups and perspectives should not argue and debate their disagreements because there is no truth to be discovered, and to assume otherwise only leads to needless conflicts and prejudices.

Absolutely No Absolutes

A few things are perhaps most curious about the new tolerance. One, it denies moral absolutes while holding to the moral absolute that there is no moral absolute. I know that’s confusing. It’s like saying, “There is no such thing as absolute truth”—to which the question should be asked, “So does that mean you’re lying when you want us to believe your absolute statement that truth does not exist?” You cannot say absolutely that there are no absolutes. I hope you see that the statement itself saws off the very limb it’s sitting on.

Two, the new tolerance is dreadfully intolerant. Ask average people arguing that every moral view is equally valid and respectable whether they think it’s right for big corporations to destroy the planet, that women at one time could not vote or that people once smoked on airplanes, and see if they are willing to truly welcome, embrace, celebrate and tolerate everyone and everything.

I’m pretty sure if an old guy smoking a cigarette while buying stocks in oil companies and gun makers and bemoaning it was a big mistake to let women learn to read was sitting on a plane next to a feminist on staff with Greenpeace, she would not defend his equally wise and welcomed alternative lifestyle to the flight attendant who was being intolerant for asking him to put out his cigarette.

Morality as Wine Tasting

Today morality is more like wine tasting than banking. In banking, there is a right and wrong answer. If you deposit $1,000 in a new bank account and a week later try to withdraw $80, you would not be willing to agree to disagree when the teller says your account is empty.

But we don’t see morality like banking anymore. Instead, we see it more like wine tasting. In wine tasting, everyone has their favorite blends and no one is necessarily right or wrong—it all depends on individual palates. No one has the right to declare as an absolute truth that simply because they prefer a specific grape or vintage, it is superior to all other wines.

The problem is, the God of the Bible sees morality like banking, not wine tasting. This is why Jesus referred to sins as “debts” in the world’s most famous prayer (Matt. 6:12).

Today there are not sins. There is only one sin, and that is calling anything a sin.

Interesting read from Pastor Mark Driscol. Discuss.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 12:11 PM   #2
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My view of tolerance: (1) There is an objective truth, but often it can not be known for certain. (2) various people, through their unique life experiences, have come to various conclusions about what that truth is. Some of those conclusions may be right, some may be wrong. Likely, no one person got it all right or all wrong. (3) Various people and groups should be free to disagree, dialogue and debate their conflicting views of the truth, but not be required to. If a person wants to just go along believing what they believe without further consideration or discussion, they have that right as long as they are not directly harming another person.

My view on absolutes: In general I do not see morals as absolutes, but there are moral situations so close that they can be considered as absolute.

I see morality as something more like a doctor diagnosing a sick patient. You collect as much information as possible, and use the collected medical knowledge and your experience as a doctor to determine the problem and the best course of action going forward, while continuing to collect more information and new knowledge.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 12:28 PM   #3
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Thank god
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Old November 20th, 2013, 04:47 PM   #4
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Thank god
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 09:10 PM   #5
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Read this earlier today being associated with accountability with the punks playing "knockout"
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 08:44 AM   #6
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There's always an exception.

'Thou shalt not kill' - unless you are convinced you are killing in the name of your god.

'Thou shalt not have gods before Me' - which makes Catholicism confusing with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

'Thou shalt not steal' 'covet' - lots of 'stealing' and 'coveting' in the Middle East over Holy Ground.

Me- I like the old tolerance better. Everyone is free to be wrong without infringing on anyone else's right to be wrong.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 12:38 PM   #7
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driscoll is right
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Old November 24th, 2013, 05:56 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by bigbchevy View Post
Thank god
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I realize if you had just read the sentence I highlighted you could think this to be a good thing. Did you 2 read the whole article?

You really think this is a good thing? Because I'm pretty sure 99.9% of this site, if he weren't speaking in christian terms, would agree that the new tolerant is crap. It's leading to a generations(s) of thin skinned little babies who wine constantly because they are 'offended' (aka, not happy) with something someone says about them.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 11:08 AM   #9
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'Thou shalt not kill' - unless you are convinced you are killing in the name of your god.
Not in modern Christianity.

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Originally Posted by BlooMule View Post
'Thou shalt not have gods before Me' - which makes Catholicism confusing with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
I'm not a Catholic but have heard this argument before..

In the Trinitarian view, the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost share the one essence, substance or being. The central and crucial affirmation of Christian faith is that there is one savior, God, and one salvation, manifest in Jesus Christ, to which there is access only because of the Holy Spirit. The God of the Old Testament is still the same as the God of the New.

Here is also a very basic explanation of the Trinity.

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'Thou shalt not steal' 'covet' - lots of 'stealing' and 'coveting' in the Middle East over Holy Ground.
Maybe I misread the OP, I thought they were talking about Christianity.

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Me- I like the old tolerance better. Everyone is free to be wrong without infringing on anyone else's right to be wrong.
I agree.

It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. - Jefferson
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Old November 24th, 2013, 11:27 AM   #10
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Christians, Jews and Muslims all consider some of the same real estate in the middle east to be 'Holy Ground'. Temple of the Mount for instance. This is a large part of why peace in the middle east is very unlikely.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 05:36 PM   #11
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I think Christian, Jews and Muslims all DO have some stake in the "Holy Ground". Churches were built over the Temples, Mosques were built over the Churches, and the cycle continues.

Sorry, getting way off the OP.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 07:51 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlooMule View Post
Christians, Jews and Muslims all consider some of the same real estate in the middle east to be 'Holy Ground'. Temple of the Mount for instance. This is a large part of why peace in the middle east is very unlikely.
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I think Christian, Jews and Muslims all DO have some stake in the "Holy Ground". Churches were built over the Temples, Mosques were built over the Churches, and the cycle continues.

Sorry, getting way off the OP.
Doesn't matter if we go off topic. It will happen anyways


I would think that the Christian side of your conversation would care less. Per Christian doctrine, the believer is the one who creates the 'holy ground'. Not a choice by a rabbi or deity from ancient times. We are the temple of God so arguing over some dirt that used to be, imo, is pointless.
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