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Old November 11th, 2013, 08:11 PM   #161
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Posted previously, but if your purpose is to procreate with as many women as possible and increase the numbers/survival of your gene pool (Darwin), then a LOT is suddenly justifiable, including rape. Personally I think we each have a much greater purpose.
What you're refusing to understand is that it's not just about getting as many women pregnant as possible, it's about having children that will live to have children of their own. Every species, through evolution, develops a system that works. Sometimes they change over time, to evolve into something else as the species evolves.

What worked for humans, probably along with, and because of the long time from birth to adult hood was a system of monogamy. Rape does not ensure that your offspring reaches adulthood, sticking around and helping raise the children works better.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 08:56 PM   #162
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What worked for humans, probably along with, and because of the long time from birth to adult hood was a system of monogamy.
Monogamy is a fairly recent behavior for humans, and certainly after any "evolutionary" divide of species speculated by Darwinism. Even in judeism polygamy is well documented. Of course you don't believe in the accuracy of the bible...
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Old November 11th, 2013, 09:25 PM   #163
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You have been arguing this whole time about god giving us our morals, not society. So why would the god given morals change from then to now?
What he said.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 09:43 PM   #164
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What he said.
The short answer...God has not changed his message, but man does not always understand or follow.

There are distinct differences between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and what the Jews were practicing.


Here is what God said in the Gospel (Matthew 22:37-39):

One of the Pharisees tested Jesus with a question, “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” (Matthew 22:36 NIV). Jesus replied, ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:37-40 NIV).

The Pharisees prided themselves on meticulous observance of the Law. They not only knew the Ten Commandments, but they paid rigorous attention to all the laws in the books of Moses–613 laws1 according to a traditional count. They tried to reason out the implications of the laws, and to make sure that they avoided even the possibility of violating any of them.

But the Pharisees had lost sight of the very heart of the matter–loving God. Without love for God, the external observance of the commandments becomes an empty form.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 08:26 AM   #165
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You have been arguing this whole time about god giving us our morals, not society. So why would the god given morals change from then to now?
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Originally Posted by mikesova View Post
What he said.
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
The short answer...God has not changed his message, but man does not always understand or follow.

There are distinct differences between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and what the Jews were practicing.


Here is what God said in the Gospel (Matthew 22:37-39):

One of the Pharisees tested Jesus with a question, “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” (Matthew 22:36 NIV). Jesus replied, ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:37-40 NIV).

The Pharisees prided themselves on meticulous observance of the Law. They not only knew the Ten Commandments, but they paid rigorous attention to all the laws in the books of Moses–613 laws1 according to a traditional count. They tried to reason out the implications of the laws, and to make sure that they avoided even the possibility of violating any of them.

But the Pharisees had lost sight of the very heart of the matter–loving God. Without love for God, the external observance of the commandments becomes an empty form.
What he said

There is one huge difference in the 'morals' of the jews and the morals we have now. Jesus summed it up in Romans 13:8-10

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Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 08:41 AM   #166
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What he said

There is one huge difference in the 'morals' of the jews and the morals we have now. Jesus summed it up in Romans 13:8-10
So it used to be moral to kill defenseless women, but now it's not. Sounds good.

It seems to me that a supposedly eternal being would have eternal morals that didn't evolve over time.

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Old November 12th, 2013, 08:49 AM   #167
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Monogamy is a fairly recent behavior for humans, and certainly after any "evolutionary" divide of species speculated by Darwinism. Even in judeism polygamy is well documented. Of course you don't believe in the accuracy of the bible...
still evolving.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 09:33 AM   #168
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Every species, through evolution, develops a system that works. Sometimes they change over time, to evolve into something else as the species evolves.

What worked for humans, probably along with, and because of the long time from birth to adult hood was a system of monogamy. Rape does not ensure that your offspring reaches adulthood, sticking around and helping raise the children works better.


still evolving.
Your argument is that human survival of genes is associated with our monogamous culture. Yet we do NOT HAVE a monogamous culture.

Since you don't believe the bible which documents polygamy, here are some other reports:

http://www.slate.com/articles/health...rategies_.html

"According to anthropologists, only 1 in 6 societies enforces monogamy as a rule. There's evidence of one-man-one-woman institutions as far back as Hammurabi's Code; it seems the practice was further codified in ancient Greece and Rome. But even then, the human commitment to fidelity had its limits: Formal concubines were frowned upon, but slaves of either sex were fair game for extramarital affairs. The historian Walter Scheidel describes this Greco-Roman practice as polygynous monogamy—a kind of halfsy moral stance on promiscuity. Today's Judeo-Christian culture has not shed this propensity to cheat. (If there weren't any hanky-panky, we wouldn't need the seventh commandment.)


In The Myth of Monogamy, evolutionary psychologists David P. Barash and Judith Eve Lipton say we're not the only pair-bonding species that likes to sleep around. Even among the animals that have long been known as faithful types—nesting birds, etc.—not too many stay exclusive. Most dally. "There are a few species that are monogamous," says Barash. "The fat-tailed dwarf lemur. The Malagasy giant jumping rat. You've got to look in the nooks and crannies to find them, though." Like so many other animals, human beings aren't really that monogamous. Better to say, we're monogamish".
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Old November 12th, 2013, 11:07 AM   #169
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Your argument is that human survival of genes is associated with our monogamous culture. Yet we do NOT HAVE a monogamous culture.

Since you don't believe the bible which documents polygamy, here are some other reports:

http://www.slate.com/articles/health...rategies_.html

"According to anthropologists, only 1 in 6 societies enforces monogamy as a rule. There's evidence of one-man-one-woman institutions as far back as Hammurabi's Code; it seems the practice was further codified in ancient Greece and Rome. But even then, the human commitment to fidelity had its limits: Formal concubines were frowned upon, but slaves of either sex were fair game for extramarital affairs. The historian Walter Scheidel describes this Greco-Roman practice as polygynous monogamy—a kind of halfsy moral stance on promiscuity. Today's Judeo-Christian culture has not shed this propensity to cheat. (If there weren't any hanky-panky, we wouldn't need the seventh commandment.)


In The Myth of Monogamy, evolutionary psychologists David P. Barash and Judith Eve Lipton say we're not the only pair-bonding species that likes to sleep around. Even among the animals that have long been known as faithful types—nesting birds, etc.—not too many stay exclusive. Most dally. "There are a few species that are monogamous," says Barash. "The fat-tailed dwarf lemur. The Malagasy giant jumping rat. You've got to look in the nooks and crannies to find them, though." Like so many other animals, human beings aren't really that monogamous. Better to say, we're monogamish".
From the same article:

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A computation-minded researcher at the University of Tennessee, Sergey Gavrilets, finished up a study in May of how that transition might have followed the laws of natural selection. It's not an easy puzzle. Gavrilets explains that a polygynous mating scheme can lead to a "vicious circle" where males waste their time and energy in fighting over females. The group might be better off if everyone split off into happy, hetero-pairs and worked on caring for their babies. But once you've started wars for sex, there's an evolutionary push to keep them going. So Gavrilets set up a computer model to see if any movement toward monogamy might conform to what we know of evolution. He found that a shift in female preference for mates that offer food and child care could have made it happen. (Low-ranked males might also favor relationships with partners that didn't cheat.)

Gavrilets says he needs to check his model against a few more theories of how human-style partnerships evolved—including one that involves the invention of cooked food. But he's made the case, at least, that biology could lead to modern love, without any help from law or custom. "Culture came much later," he told a reporter in the spring, "and only augmented things that were already in place."
Maybe I shouldn't have said "monogamy", my point was that with a system where males had a willing partner and they stuck together to raise the young, be it monogamy or polygamy, is probably more likely to produce children that will grow up to have their own children than a system where males rape women and leave them to raise the children on this own.

And I question that 1 in 6 statement. As far as I know nearly every society has some type of male-female bonding, most seem to be mostly monogamous, a few are polygamous, and I don't know of any that have lone males raping women at will.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 12:22 PM   #170
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From the same article:



Maybe I shouldn't have said "monogamy", my point was that with a system where males had a willing partner and they stuck together to raise the young, be it monogamy or polygamy, is probably more likely to produce children that will grow up to have their own children than a system where males rape women and leave them to raise the children on this own.

And I question that 1 in 6 statement. As far as I know nearly every society has some type of male-female bonding, most seem to be mostly monogamous, a few are polygamous, and I don't know of any that have lone males raping women at will.
1:6 was actually stated in multiple independent articles I found on the subject. The exerpt you pulled is interesting. It describes a "researcher" who speculates that some other enigmatic model may link monogamy to evolution when others have contradicting actual data showing the humans are not currently nor historically monogamous by nature.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 01:02 PM   #171
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1:6 was actually stated in multiple independent articles I found on the subject. The exerpt you pulled is interesting. It describes a "researcher" who speculates that some other enigmatic model may link monogamy to evolution when others have contradicting actual data showing the humans are not currently nor historically monogamous by nature.
I suspect the 1:6 number is counting places like North America and mostly 1 culture the same as some group of 50 people in some tribe in the Amazon.

But forget that I said monogamous. I was specifically referring to a system where the males stuck around to help raise the young vs. a system where the males rape the females and let them and their offspring fend for them selves, which you suggested would happen without God given morals. How many of those are there?
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Old November 12th, 2013, 09:17 PM   #172
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So it used to be moral to kill defenseless women, but now it's not. Sounds good.

It seems to me that a supposedly eternal being would have eternal morals that didn't evolve over time.


God still does not aprove of sex outside of marriage. The moral hasn't changed. We respond to it differently.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 05:12 PM   #173
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God still does not aprove of sex outside of marriage. The moral hasn't changed. We respond to it differently.
That's one. What about the others?
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Old November 13th, 2013, 07:51 PM   #174
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So it used to be moral to kill defenseless women, but now it's not. Sounds good.

It seems to me that a supposedly eternal being would have eternal morals that didn't evolve over time.

We've established that the individuals afflicted with the plague were killed before they could spread it further, the tools sterilized, and those that had been in proximity to the affected quarantined until it was certain they had not contracted the disease. What would be your approach if your town became highly infected with a contagion such as Ebola?
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Old November 13th, 2013, 08:21 PM   #175
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We've established that the individuals afflicted with the plague were killed before they could spread it further, the tools sterilized, and those that had been in proximity to the affected quarantined until it was certain they had not contracted the disease. What would be your approach if your town became highly infected with a contagion such as Ebola?

That's the way you've interpreted the story. That doesn't mean that is what happened.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 09:27 PM   #176
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That's the way you've interpreted the story. That doesn't mean that is what happened.
Actually the incident is documented in more than just the bible, and does refer to a plague. It is not just my interpretation. But who cares about facts documented in multiple sources. It's more about some hypothetical model presented by some quack researcher that we can all believe.
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Old November 14th, 2013, 01:14 AM   #177
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We've established that the individuals afflicted with the plague were killed before they could spread it further, the tools sterilized, and those that had been in proximity to the affected quarantined until it was certain they had not contracted the disease. What would be your approach if your town became highly infected with a contagion such as Ebola?
Why did they slaughter all the male children?
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Old November 14th, 2013, 09:01 AM   #178
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Why did they slaughter all the male children?
hmm, yes that is curious.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...31&version=KJV

Of course, there will be some apologetic that explains it away, just as they try to do with slavery ("it's just indentured servitude, duh"). It doesn't mean I buy it.

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Old November 14th, 2013, 10:01 AM   #179
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Faust Faust

Faust is the protagonist of a classic German legend; a highly successful scholar but one dissatisfied with his life who therefore makes a pact with the Devil, exchanging his soul for unlimited knowledge and worldly pleasures. The Faust legend has been the basis for many literary, artistic, cinematic, and musical works that have reinterpreted it through the ages. Faust and the adjective Faustian imply a situation in which an ambitious person surrenders moral integrity in order to achieve power and success for a delimited term.[1] Translated as "fist" in High German, the name "Faust" suggests someone who resorts to extraordinary means to achieve goals, akin to if not actually involving force; it also implies unusual tenacity and persistence.

The Faust of early books—as well as the ballads, movies and puppet-plays which grew out of them—is irrevocably damned because he prefers human to divine knowledge; "he laid the Holy Scriptures behind the door and under the bench, refused to be called doctor of Theology, but preferred to be styled doctor of Medicine".[1] Plays and comic puppet theatre loosely based on this legend were popular throughout Germany in the 16th century, often reducing Faust and Mephistopheles to figures of vulgar fun. The story was popularised in England by Christopher Marlowe, who gave it a classic treatment in his play, The Tragical History of Doctor Faustus. In Goethe's reworking of the story two hundred years later, Faust becomes a dissatisfied intellectual that yearns for "more than earthly meat and drink" in his life.
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Old November 14th, 2013, 10:41 AM   #180
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ok, that explains everything.
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