Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

Politics, Government, or Religion Chat Bring your flamesuit!







Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 2nd, 2013, 01:44 PM   #121
opie
www.krissplicing.com
 
Join Date: 07-21-08
Location: Lansing, MI
Posts: 818
iTrader: (10)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by concreteguy82 View Post
This again?
You don't have to participate.
opie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2013, 03:17 PM   #122
aber61
Senior Member
 
aber61's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-22-08
Location: Commerce Twp. Michigan
Posts: 6,078
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikesova View Post
Not to speak for Blue Mule, but, it's one thing to believe something that is demonstrable, i.e, I wasn't alive during the French Revolution, but I can believe that people were beheaded by the guillotine since I have seen the machines and know they are capable of doing it. However, if somebody said that somebody got up after having there head cut off and walked around, I would probably withhold belief until I had evidence, since that is pretty extraordinary claim.
So drawings on cave walls of dinosaurs don't count?
aber61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2013, 03:26 PM   #123
amc78cj7
Senior Member
 
amc78cj7's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,352
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Historically it has been recorded that Spartans are a much better football team than Wolverines. This is history that we are all about to witness being repeated today.

6-3 MSU!
__________________
I'm not quoting idiots who promote unsafe recovery strap techniques anymore. :miff:
amc78cj7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2013, 03:42 PM   #124
BlooMule
pew pew
 
BlooMule's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-08-05
Location: a mile from the shithole
Posts: 24,411
iTrader: (12)
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
Historically it has been recorded that Spartans are a much better football team than Wolverines. This is history that we are all about to witness being repeated today.

6-3 MSU!
Wow, you do have faith!
__________________
-rw-rw-rw
BlooMule is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2013, 04:03 PM   #125
amc78cj7
Senior Member
 
amc78cj7's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,352
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

13 - 6 at the half. GO SPARTANS!
__________________
I'm not quoting idiots who promote unsafe recovery strap techniques anymore. :miff:
amc78cj7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2013, 05:56 PM   #126
amc78cj7
Senior Member
 
amc78cj7's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-07-05
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,352
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

29 - 6. We are spartans!
__________________
I'm not quoting idiots who promote unsafe recovery strap techniques anymore. :miff:
amc78cj7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2013, 06:21 PM   #127
Brods
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 01-21-07
Location: Salem, Mi
Posts: 701
iTrader: (2)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
Then who/what does?


Ah, but you're expressing American morals as morals that should apply to everyone. Do you see what I'm getting at? There are still countries that do not look at women as equals in thier rights. Thier morals would not agree with yours. So who's right?

.....

Go Green
__________________
88 K5 350 700R4 241 D60 14B 42TSL
Brods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2013, 08:25 PM   #128
L4CX
Out for the Summer!
 
L4CX's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-16-07
Location: Hillsdale, MI
Posts: 4,913
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by opie View Post
I see what you are getting at...... The problem as I see it, taking your question at face value, is its one of those questions where the only real, easy, right answer is God. Because Christians believe that we are all flawed by design, so we can not inherently be moral people without Gods hand.

However, there are millions of people around the world who do lead moral lives without Gods guidance. Whether or not those folks have to be moral is irrelevant. Its an interesting question and conversation topic, but at the end of the conversation, there will still be 2 camps.
I actually believe that those that are 'moral' sans God are still images of God (we all are, if you're not coming from my previous 'accident' stance) and because of that we inherently have his traits in us. Believer or not. The Caveat to this thinking, though, is that when we are final judged those who do not believe will be separated from God. Including those attributes that are seen within us.


Quote:
Well, Obviously Im right.

All seriousness aside, I don't look at my own personal morality code as "American" morals. Every American has a different standard that they conduct themselves in. My viewpoint comes from a direction of common respect and decency. I also think there are some blurred lines being crossed here between morals and religious doctrine.

Womens equal rights... Unfortunately thats not a good example. Most of the countries that do not view woman as equals are countries whos governments are run primarily by religion. Our Founders were intelligent enough to be able to practice their own faith, but not set in stone a Government that is based on the same foundation. They protected our basic, fundamental rights and left the rest to the states.
Even they didn't live in a world were women or slaves had rights. But I see your point and your right, religious run countries are most of those countries. Good call.

Quote:
Does it really matter if anyone will remember your name in 500 years? What matters is how you conduct yourself while alive, not how your legacy will be viewed.
Nope. That's my point though. This thinking can go both ways. Either you live a life of respect and treating your fellow man well (I'm for this one BTW) or you live your life immoral and enjoy the ride when you can.

Either way it's meaningless unless you focus on what is beyond this life. Which, as you have probably figured out, is my point.

Quote:
Well, I have 2 answers...

First is, why wouldn't you? Would you really be willing to sell yourself short simply because you were put here on accident?

Second, we folks that choose to not follow a God are not lost. I believe this is the logical end to the condition you are setting up. Yes, if someone has lost all their drive and determination, they could simply give up and stop trying. Many times non believers are classified as lost by religious folk. Clearly if that's what religious folk truly believe, then I can see why non believers having the will and determination to still be good people doesn't make sense.

I think the more likely reason is a lack or parental involvement.
It's not that it doesn't make sense, the paragarph earlier kind of explains my thinking on this. I'm definately not one of those Christians that nonbelievers are immoral, no matter what. Quite the opposite. I know better.


Quote:
I know. This is a serious discussion, all attempts at humor must cease and desist.
Noted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebs View Post
If god created all of us, and his morals are one of those creations, shouldn't we all abide by those morals whether we believe in god or not? Being they are so ingrained in his perfect-the-second-time-around design. Or is there some kind of windows update for the human that doesn't install his morals until he has deemed you acceptable.
Free will. <pop, a rush of air> Oh, look a can of worms. .

It's very easy to see, due to the apparent hypocracy of the church, that this thinking is right. Jesus said it him self when he talked about the sick needing a doctor and not the well needing one.

I also think this thread indicates that even those that don't believe still follow a set of morals that they aren't entirely sure of the origins of. They just know it's right or wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
29 - 6. We are spartans!
I'm glad you kept us updated! Go Green! I'm a fan of both teams (I know, one of the more out there claims I've made on this forum) but Michigan didn't even show up. The Spartans deserved that win and the pure joy that bashing probably brought to thier green little hearts.
L4CX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2013, 08:41 PM   #129
concreteguy82
Yeah Buddy!!
 
concreteguy82's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-01-11
Location: Clio, Michigan
Posts: 2,816
iTrader: (4)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by opie View Post
You don't have to participate.
Don't plan on it!!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
BTW, I do not hate our country. I love our country, I just hate the way it's trending.
concreteguy82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2013, 09:07 PM   #130
opie
www.krissplicing.com
 
Join Date: 07-21-08
Location: Lansing, MI
Posts: 818
iTrader: (10)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
I actually believe that those that are 'moral' sans God are still images of God (we all are, if you're not coming from my previous 'accident' stance) and because of that we inherently have his traits in us. Believer or not. The Caveat to this thinking, though, is that when we are final judged those who do not believe will be separated from God. Including those attributes that are seen within us.
Those who choose to not believe have already chosen to be separated from God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
Nope. That's my point though. This thinking can go both ways. Either you live a life of respect and treating your fellow man well (I'm for this one BTW) or you live your life immoral and enjoy the ride when you can.
One can be moral, and enjoy the ride. Its just a matter of perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
Either way it's meaningless unless you focus on what is beyond this life. Which, as you have probably figured out, is my point.
For most, concentrating on the here and now is enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L4CX View Post
Noted.
I was being sarcastic.
opie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2013, 07:23 AM   #131
aber61
Senior Member
 
aber61's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-22-08
Location: Commerce Twp. Michigan
Posts: 6,078
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

I was reading this morning and found this little bit that helps us with the question about where do we get the thought of morals. We all know who God is because of Him. We know right from wrong because of Him.

Jeremiah 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
aber61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2013, 07:48 AM   #132
mikesova
My 4x4 is a Subaru.
 
mikesova's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Gladwin, MI
Posts: 7,758
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to mikesova
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aber61 View Post
I was reading this morning and found this little bit that helps us with the question about where do we get the thought of morals. We all know who God is because of Him. We know right from wrong because of Him.

Jeremiah 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
/thread.
mikesova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 3rd, 2013, 02:17 PM   #133
L4CX
Out for the Summer!
 
L4CX's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-16-07
Location: Hillsdale, MI
Posts: 4,913
iTrader: (5)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by opie View Post
Those who choose to not believe have already chosen to be separated from God.
That's fair. If you believe what I believe (which I know you don't), nobody is truly seperated from God at the moment. We all still benefit from his creation and his attributes that reside in it. However, there will come a time when those attributes are no longer in this world and those that have decided to live seperate from God will be given over to that wishing. I won't get into what I think that will be like though.



Quote:
One can be moral, and enjoy the ride. Its just a matter of perspective.
Or one can immoral and enjoy the ride unhindered by those morals.

Quote:
For most, concentrating on the here and now is enough.
Is it really? How many people pursue money, fame and success (IMO what some might consider 'here and now') and are miserable? CS Lewis put it very well when he said we have a God sized hole in us. We can only fill it by looking past the here and now and investing in the eternal.

That's why I, personally, think that so many of those in utter poverty are the happiest. They know this world has nothing for them and look forward to what will await them when they reach the eternal. If you don't think I'm telling the truth, go to a third world country and try and understand the joy that most of those people have compared to our 'here and now' culture in the US. It's sickening to see really how much we are pampered bitches. (oh no he didn't)
L4CX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2013, 08:16 AM   #134
aber61
Senior Member
 
aber61's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-22-08
Location: Commerce Twp. Michigan
Posts: 6,078
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Ray Comfort said it right about moral law and everybody knowing what is right and wrong.

We are surrounded by unseen and rarely spoken about “laws.” Take for example music. It is painfully obvious when someone sings off key. We intuitively know that something is wrong, unless we ourselves are tone deaf. So it is morally. We are all subject to the moral Law. We intuitively know that lying, stealing, the killing of the unborn, rape, adultery, fornication, lust, hatred, etc., are wrong. However, some are morally deaf. The Ten Commandments brings our hearing back. They stir the conscience to do its God-given duty. Listen to it. It’s not your enemy…and neither are we.
aber61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2013, 08:29 AM   #135
mikesova
My 4x4 is a Subaru.
 
mikesova's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Gladwin, MI
Posts: 7,758
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to mikesova
Default

Yes, Ray Comfort is a near genius:

http://youtu.be/YfucpGCm5hY

Edit: I forgot to mention, in this clip, Ray Comfort uses "aberlogic" tm.

Last edited by mikesova; November 4th, 2013 at 08:53 AM.
mikesova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2013, 09:05 AM   #136
aber61
Senior Member
 
aber61's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-22-08
Location: Commerce Twp. Michigan
Posts: 6,078
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Actually Mike he was making a funny.
aber61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2013, 10:01 AM   #137
mikesova
My 4x4 is a Subaru.
 
mikesova's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Gladwin, MI
Posts: 7,758
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to mikesova
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aber61 View Post
Actually Mike he was making a funny.
Lol. Ok.
mikesova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2013, 06:57 AM   #138
mikesova
My 4x4 is a Subaru.
 
mikesova's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Gladwin, MI
Posts: 7,758
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to mikesova
Default

This discussion began asking about where atheists get their morals from or why we don't go out and loot/pillage/rape...but what makes "God's morals" so spectacular?



I still stand that I have a superior moral system than God's.
mikesova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2013, 07:13 AM   #139
aber61
Senior Member
 
aber61's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-22-08
Location: Commerce Twp. Michigan
Posts: 6,078
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Context, Mike context.
aber61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7th, 2013, 07:17 AM   #140
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,380
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aber61 View Post
Context, Mike context.
So there are situations where murder and sexual slavery is OK in Gods eyes?
brewmenn is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:31 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Copyright ©2005 - 2012 Cracker Enterprises - Powered by Linux
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=
Page generated in 0.27559 seconds with 53 queries